IF something is being presented, whether it is a reinforcer or a punisher, it is 
positive. If something is being removed, whether reinforcer or punisher, it's 
negative. If something increases behavior, it's reinforcing, if it decreases it, it's 
punishing.

To MOST of us, presenting an electric shock following a behavior would be an example 
of positive punishment. BUT, there are some people for whom that would be positive 
reinforcement.
It's really not that difficult. The terms negative and positive refer to the 
relationship of the consequences with the behavior. It IS mathematical, which is why 
it's so straightforward. And the probability varies with a number of things, such as 
the strength of the correlation, the contiguity, and the predictability of the 
consequence following the behavior.

Carol


-----Original Message-----
From: jim clark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 1:46 PM
To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences
Subject: RE: apparition


Hi

On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, Paul Smith wrote:

> Michael Caruso wrote: 
> 
> > Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I just looked at the only three behavioral
> > analysis texts I have (2 from 1979 and 1 from 1993) and all three define a
> > "negative reinforcer" as an aversive stimulus - one's whose removal
> > following a response reinforces the behavior. 
> 
> Er, and therefore the McMaster site IS in error when it
> claims that "A negative reinforcer is a stimulus that reduces
> the probability of any response it follows". I get the
> feeling you thought that we were complaining about something
> else (I'm not sure what), since your examples are supporting
> the claim that the McMaster site is wrong, right?

No it is not in error because it is referring to the presentation
(not removal) of a negative reinforcer.  Presentation of an
aversive stimulus (aka negative reinforcer) is punishment and
does decrease the probability of the response it
follows.  Removal of an aversive stimulus (aka negative
reinforcer) is negative reinforcement and does increase the
probability of the response it follows.  

I would think it could be equally confusing to students to say
that a stimulus (e.g., a shock) is a negative reinforcer when its
elimination follows a response, but the same shock when it is
presented after a response somehow is no longer a negative
reinforcer.  Some people appear to be including the
removal/presentation into the defining characteristics of shock
(or whatever the aversive stimulus is), whereas others, like the
McMaster site, appear to be separating the stimulus (i.e.,
shock) from the presentation/removal question.  

One advantage of the latter approach is that it eliminates the
need for a separate term (e.g., aversive stimulus) for the actual
stimulus.  For those who conflate the two, presumably they would
feel comfortable saying that an aversive stimulus increases the
frequency of some response when it is removed and decreases the
frequency of some response when it is presented.  All the
McMaster-type people are doing is substituting negative
reinforcer for aversive stimulus.

Best wishes
Jim

============================================================================
James M. Clark                          (204) 786-9757
Department of Psychology                (204) 774-4134 Fax
University of Winnipeg                  4L05D
Winnipeg, Manitoba  R3B 2E9             [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CANADA                                  http://www.uwinnipeg.ca/~clark
============================================================================


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