Yes....the worst nightmare....and unimaginable grief which I'm so sorry to hear is in your life.
My personal opinion is that there is such a thing as emotional trauma which never heals in the same way that there can be physical damage that never heals, such as a permanent limp. The damage and the pain never totally go away. It can't be healed, so people must learn to live and cope with it. --Mike On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 10:17 AM, Joann Jelly <[email protected]> wrote: > Having lost two young adult sons through acccidents and researching parental > bereavement for my dissertation, I would like to make a few points, not > necessarily related to the DSM-4 or 5. Perhaps I should have done so early in > the discussion, yet some 30 plus years later, the situations/topics are > difficult to discuss. > > Many (how many) bereaved parents in my research groups mentioned they were > sad and pointedly said they were not depressed and wanted that point to be > understood. > > Isolation: bereaved parents are living most parents worst nightmare and know > it and are isolated by others similar to widows in a social group. When we > are in a group who know our children and talk about our children who are > dead, silence descends, (denial of death by most of us?) and so we don't. > > The experience of bereavement of children (or anyone really close) is very > individual and yet some patterns of similarly are evident. "Confusion re > one's role and diminished sense of self," seems to be expressed in different > ways and many bereaved parents find that we "redesign" our lives. > Personally, I returned to school, attained a doctorate and still (STILL) am > teaching in a community college; I love being with our students and > interacting with their life stress situations. I did find comfort and > affilition in The Compassional Friends a national parental bereavement > "self-help" group and I lead group meetings and performed much of my research > for the dissertation through this group. > > Just thought I would throw my experience in the discussion, hope it helps. > > Joann Jelly, > Psychology Instructor > Barstow Community College > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Michael Smith [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Wed 8/4/2010 7:47 PM > To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) > Subject: Re: [tips] DSM and grieving > > > > Thank you Scott for the info which directly applies to the article > > Being a popular article I wasn't taking it too seriously :-) > > --Mike > > > On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Lilienfeld, Scott O <[email protected]> wrote: >> Hi All - I've been following the discussion of pathological grief with some >> interest, and TIPSTERS have raised some useful points. I am by no means an >> apologist for DSM-IV or V (in fact, have criticized both) and don't have a >> good enough handle on the recent research literature to evaluate many of the >> claims re: the proposal for pathological grief disorder (PGS). >> Nevertheless, when discussing these claims, it's crucial to understand that >> the draft criteria are much more stringent (e.g., they don't imply that a >> diagnosis can be made in 2 weeks) than implied in some recent TIPS messages. >> >> Below are the draft criteria for DSM-V (or now DSM-5, as it seems to be >> abbreviated increasingly). Note in particular Criterion D (Timing) below. >> Again, many interesting and troubling questions can be raised about these >> draft criteria; but they certainly don't imply that anyone grieving over the >> loss of a loved one (and yes, I've been there too), even for a couple of >> months, will receive diagnoses of a mental disorder in DSM-5. Perhaps other >> draft criteria for PGS are floating around too, but if so, I'm not aware of >> them. >> >> >> ..Scott >> >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> Table 3. Criteria for PGD proposed for DSM-V and ICD-11. >> >> Category Definition >> >> A. Event: Bereavement (loss of a significant other) >> B. Separation distress: The bereaved person experiences yearning (e.g., >> craving, pining, or longing for the deceased; physical or emotional >> suffering as >> a result of the desired, but unfulfilled, reunion with the deceased) daily >> or to a disabling degree. >> C. Cognitive, emotional, and behavioral symptoms: The bereaved person must >> have five (or more) of the following symptoms experienced daily or to >> a disabling degree: >> 1. Confusion about one's role in life or diminished sense of self (i.e., >> feeling that a part of oneself has died) >> 2. Difficulty accepting the loss >> 3. Avoidance of reminders of the reality of the loss >> 4. Inability to trust others since the loss >> 5. Bitterness or anger related to the loss >> 6. Difficulty moving on with life (e.g., making new friends, pursuing >> interests) >> 7. Numbness (absence of emotion) since the loss >> 8. Feeling that life is unfulfilling, empty, or meaningless since the loss >> 9. Feeling stunned, dazed or shocked by the loss >> D. Timing: Diagnosis should not be made until at least six months have >> elapsed since the death. >> E. Impairment: The disturbance causes clinically significant impairment in >> social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning (e.g., domestic >> responsibilities). >> F. Relation to other mental disorders: The disturbance is not better >> accounted for by major depressive disorder, generalized anxiety disorder, or >> posttraumatic stress disorder. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Michael Smith [mailto:[email protected]] >> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 11:33 AM >> To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) >> Subject: Re: [tips] DSM and grieving >> >> I think the main point of the article is that the bereavement >> exclusion was dropped and an additional point is that this is the >> result of one person's decision...gives one such faith in the >> scientific process. >> >> To the effect that, if you grieve longer than 2 weeks, regardless of >> the cause, then you should be treated as you now have a mental >> illness. >> >> Most ordinary people will rightly consider this a ridiculous statement. >> >> --Mike >> >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 4:34 PM, Mike Palij <[email protected]> wrote: >>> My reaction to the article is somewhat different from that of Nancy's. >>> I can understand her reaction but as someone who's had his own >>> share of bereavement, I would say that some people are able to >>> get through the grieving process in a "reasonable" amount of time >>> and others have great difficulty in doing so and may require assistance >>> in getting through the process. The loss of a spouse, in contrast >>> to the loss of a child, is a far more common event but it is recognized >>> as a potentially risky situation for the surviving spouse because of >>> the increased risk of that spouse's death, something referred to at >>> the "widowhood effect". One review of the widowhood effect provides >>> three general explanations for thie effect: (a) the death of a spouse >>> directly causes the death of the surviving spouse through some >>> process/mechanism, (b) "Homogamy", that is, husbands and wives >>> are similar in many respects and one should expect a correlation >>> between the time of death of one spouse and another, and (c) members >>> of a couple are exposed to many of the same environmental variables >>> which may cause the non-simulatneous death of both). More info >>> can be obtained from a review by Elwert & Cristakis in their 2008 >>> review article in the journal Demography which is available here: >>> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2789302/ >>> >>> I admit to being surprised at people who are able to "snap back" after >>> the death of a spouse and re-marry within a year a two -- I simply >>> do not understand it. Similarly, the loss of a child, the loss of a parent, >>> the loss of a close friend, the loss of a loved one, the loss of someone >>> who had substantial meaning to one, all of these will be handled differently >>> by different people. Some will get over the loss though it may take years, >>> while some may never be able to get over the loss though, perhaps, the pain >>> of the loss might be mitigated with passage of time. For this latter group, >>> I think some form of psychotherapy may be appropriate in helping to >>> process the loss, appreciate the significance of the loss, and to develop >>> the rationale why one needs to move on. >>> >>> Just a couple of points more: >>> >>> (1) The widowhood effect varies by race. I'll leave it up to the reader to >>> speculate what is the form of this interaction. Then go and read this: >>> http://asr.sagepub.com/content/71/1/16.abstract >>> >>> (2) Severe bereavement effects have been seen with animals. The >>> example that stands out in my memory is from the National Geographic's >>> PBS special on Jane Goodall in which the male Flint, who had problems >>> been weaned from his mother Flo, died shortly after her death, apparently >>> from depression and grief; see: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasakela_chimpanzee_community#Flint >>> I recommend watching the original documentary "Among the Wild >>> Chimpanzees" to fully appreciate what happened. >>> >>> My own opinion is that pharamacotherapy is probably not very useful >>> in this situation though for some it may provide some temporary relief. >>> Losing a loved one under traumatic situations (e.g., watching them die >>> in front of you) can also lead to PTSD which would have be dealt with >>> seperate from the effects of grieving. >>> >>> -Mike Palij >>> New York University >>> [email protected] >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, 03 Aug 2010 12:14:09 -0700, Dr. Nancy Melucci wrote: >>>>I just read the story. It is even more outrageous when they suggest >>>>that the grieving for the loss of a child - the worst possible lost, made >>>>even harder in modern times when so few of us experience it (so >>>>more isolating than ever in an already death denying culture) - is >>>>more like a treatable illness than a normal reaction. >>>> >>>>Two modern cultural themes emerge of course - fear of being sued >>>>("I'd rather call it depression...") and of course the gigantic gold mine >>>>that labeling more and more of the colorful, unsettling and some times >>>>deeply painful emotional states that comprise a full life has become to >>>>psychiatry and the pharmaceutical industry. >>>> >>>>I have become more and more comfortable in my lectures criticizing >>>>the unscientific and shoddy construction of the DSM. And teaching >>>>the views of Szasz as serious insights and not the rantings of a fringe >>>>dweller. >>>> >>>>When we are happy all the time, no one will be happy anymore. >>>> >>>>Nancy Melucci >>>>Long Beach City Colleg >>>>Long Beach CA >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Dennis Goff <[email protected]> >>> To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) >>> <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:52 am >>> Subject: [tips] DSM and grieving >>> >>> I heard this story on NPR yesterday morning and thought that it could be >>> used >>> as a nice introduction to some of the controversies surrounding the new >>> edition >>> of the DSM or even a class discussion about the definition of a >>> psychological >>> disorders. The story discusses diagnosing "grief reactions" as a depression. >>> >>> "The DSM committee removed the bereavement exclusion - a small, almost >>> footnote >>> at the bottom of the section that describes the symptoms of major >>> depression - >>> from the manual." >>> >>> The title of the piece - "Is Emotional Pain Necessary?" >>> >>> http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128874986&ps=cprs >>> tiny http://tinyurl.com/2g7yc22 >>> >>> --- >>> You are currently subscribed to tips as: [email protected]. >>> To unsubscribe click here: >>> http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13541.42a7e8017ab9578358f118300f4720fb&n=T&l=tips&o=3964 >>> or send a blank email to >>> leave-3964-13541.42a7e8017ab9578358f118300f472...@fsulist.frostburg.edu >>> >> >> --- >> You are currently subscribed to tips as: [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe click here: >> http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13509.d0999cebc8f4ed4eb54d5317367e9b2f&n=T&l=tips&o=3983 >> or send a blank email to >> leave-3983-13509.d0999cebc8f4ed4eb54d5317367e9...@fsulist.frostburg.edu >> >> This e-mail message (including any attachments) is for the sole use of >> the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged >> information. 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