Scott, what comes across in Coyles book is the crucial role of the coach/teacher in developing children with talent. That's why there are "hot beds" in certain areas of the world--these kids don't have superior genes then other children around the world but they have been provided superior instruction. Now, within each group in the hot bed areas, I would totally agree that genetic potential has to play a role. I didn't mean to imply I was totally with Coyle on that one, though clearly that's how I have come across. The most convincing case Coyle does make, however, is the crucial role of the teacher as well as the type of practice experienced by the children, much of it a result of the style of the teacher/coach. I'll need to go back to the book as I would like to provide the various "hot beds" he investigates that seem to be very much connected to the style of teaching provided to the learners.
Curious Scott, do you recall the style of coaching you received for soccer? Do any tipsters out there recall a coach or teacher who was able to develop an extraordinary number of talented kids? I was a competitive swimmer and our Detroit Boat Club swimming team won a number of city titles due to our assistant coach, Tim. (Our head coach, Bernie, was a joke as he cared so little and practices with him were so easy. If he was really in charge, we would never have won any championships.) But swimming practices with Tim were very intense and exhausting with lots of feedback. Because he clearly cared so much and was so invested, we all wanted to work hard in order to please him. I also recall my gym teacher, Mrs. Murry, in Junior High who developed a huge number of talented female athletes because she was a terrific and highly motivating coach/teacher. Joan [email protected] > Actually, I like this George Best goal even better, from later in his > career across the pond: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPGTpgMfW4s&feature=related > > As a teenager, I got to see George Best (then playing for the Los > Angeles Aztecs) play against Pele (then playing for the New York > Cosmos) in a North American Soccer League (NASL) game at Giants > Stadium in the Meadowlands. Although both were past their prime at > that point, it was still something close to a religious experience - > their ball control was so remarkable that it was almost as though the > ball was attached to their feet via an invisible string. > > Back to the thread....one issue re: the 10,000 rule that I think is > bothersome (and one reason I didn't much like Gladwell's book, > Outliers) is that it neglects what behavior geneticists call active > gene-environment correlation, and in the process confuses correlation > with causation. I don't doubt that lots and lots (and perhaps most) > truly outstanding people across many professions, including music, > psychology, mathematics, and soccer (or what they call "football" in > Allen's part of the world), have indeed practiced over 10,000 hours > before achieving their greatness; nor do I doubt that their practice > made a big difference. But why did they end up practicing 10,000 > hours? Would they really have done so if they were lousy at it? As > an N of 1 example, bringing it back to soccer (football): I played > some soccer in high school and practiced it a fair amount, but gave > up after a while for a simple reason - I was OK, but I was never that > great at it, so I didn't find the practice terribly reinforcing. I > was not blessed with a genetic dose of greater (or even especially > good...) athletic ability. > > Almost surely, genetic influences increase the likelihood of raw > athletic ability (as Stephen Black observes, the data here are > difficult to gainsay), which makes practice positively reinforcing, > which in turn results in greater practice and greater expertise. > I'd be surprised if the same or a similar causal model wouldn't hold > for many or most other professions. > > ...Scott > ________________________________________ > From: Allen Esterson [[email protected]] > Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2011 7:09 AM > To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) > Subject: Re:[tips] Book Recommendations > > In reply to Jim Clark writing that he "would be very surprised if genes > did not play some part > in the radical sorting process that led some few to stardom", > > Joan Warmbold wrote: >>Daniel Coyle makes a convincing case for otherwise. He noted >>over and over again the so-called hot beds had two crucial >>elements: a) a person who provided inspiration, or in his words, >>"ignition,"; and then, b) opportunity for lots of deep practice. >>[ ] But what Coyle does make a very convincing case for is >>that children's environmental experiences are the most important >>part of the formula. He does go further to make the case that >>genetic predisposition is not part of the equation at all, or if >>so, a very small part > > There's no dispute that environmental opportunities and hard work are > crucial factors for an individual's exceptional achievement nor, I > think, that such hard work on a specific skill, at least in childhood, > produces changes in the brain concordant with the talent in question. > Nor is there any dispute that high levels of commitment are a necessary > factor in reaching high levels of achievement. But, whatever Coyle may > state, none of this rules out the likelihood that genetic factors play > a crucial role in exceptional cases of achievement. > > I suspect it is a mistake to treat all exceptional achievement in the > same way, e.g., athletic achievement and musical talent. For instance, > the soccer player David Beckham undoubtedly acquired his special talent > of extraordinary accuracy in long passes by hard work, i.e., repeated > practice. But I don't believe a budding composer can advance his or her > talents very much by repeatedly copying the same (or different) pieces > of music over and over again. > > Incidentally, despite his worldwide stardom, soccer commentators > recognize that Beckham's talents are relatively limited. Despite having > the advantage of all the factors cited by Coyle, he is not regarded as > one of the greats of the game; for example, his ability to take on > defenders and get past them is notoriously poor, and certainly not in > the same ball park as someone like George Best: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6T_wpBZ0nY&feature=related > > To put it another way, considerable player that he is, Beckham doesn't > have the exceptional natural talent of a Best or Pele. > > Allen Esterson > Former lecturer, Science Department > Southwark College, London > [email protected] > http://www.esterson.org > > --------------------------------------------- > From: Joan Warmbold <[email protected]> > Subject: Book Recommendations > Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 13:12:44 -0600 (CST) > Thanks for your book recommendation Carol--sounds very interesting if > not > upsetting. Two books I would highly recommend (or have I > already--yikes) > are: Talent Code by Coyle--incredible book on the hot spots around the > globe that have produced extraordinary numbers of very gifted and highly > motivated children in soccer, the arts, tennis, etc. And the source of > these high numbers of gifted children/young adults is not genetic folks. > > http://www.thesimplerlife.net/2010/05/22/book-review-the-talent-code/ > > The second book that's a must read is "Safe Patients, Smart Hospitals." > Peter Pronovost. A review is below--and I now will only go to a > hospital > that uses the team and check-list system described in this book if I > need > care for any type of serious health issue. > > http://us.penguingroup.com/nf/Book/BookDisplay/0,,9781594630644,00.html > > Hmmm. . . this is ringing too many bells so sorry for the > redundancy--but > they are really good! Would love to hear from others recommended good > reads! > > > Joan > Joan (Warmbold) Boggs > Professor of Psychology > Oakton Community College > [email protected] > > -------------------------------------- > From: Jim Clark <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Book Recommendations > Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2011 13:41:10 -0600 > Hi > > One of the "hot spots" mentioned is Brazil and soccer players. Here's > a passage > from a site celebrating Brazilian soccer. > > "The majority of the people living in Brazil are in deep poverty. > Soccer is the > one ticket out of that lifestyle if the talent is learned early enough. > Many of > the popular soccer players on the Brazil soccer team came from very > poor > backgrounds, learning soccer at a very young age." > > The emerging superstars, relatively numerous at the star level, would > be a very > tiny proportion of all the poor kids playing soccer in Brazil. I would > be very > surprised if genes did not play some part in the radical sorting > process that > led some few to stardom and the rest to whatever miserable fate awaits > them once > their dreams of glory are shattered by reality. > > Take care > Jim > > > James M. Clark > Professor of Psychology > 204-786-9757 > 204-774-4134 Fax > [email protected] > > From: Mike Palij <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Book Recommendations > Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 16:26:09 -0500 > On Wed, 05 Jan 2011 11:41:44 -0800, Jim Clark wrote in response to Joan > Warmbold's recommendation of the "Talent Code" by Daniel Coyle: >>Hi >>One of the "hot spots" mentioned is Brazil and soccer players. Here's > a >>passage from a site celebrating Brazilian soccer. >> >>"The majority of the people living in Brazil are in deep poverty. > Soccer is the > >>one ticket out of that lifestyle if the talent is learned early > enough. Many of > >>the popular soccer players on the Brazil soccer team came from very > poor >>backgrounds, learning soccer at a very young age." >> >>The emerging superstars, relatively numerous at the star level, would > be a >>very tiny proportion of all the poor kids playing soccer in Brazil. I > would be > >>very surprised if genes did not play some part in the radical sorting > process >>that led some few to stardom and the rest to whatever miserable fate > awaits >>them once their dreams of glory are shattered by reality. > > Jim's comments triggered my memory for why the Dominican Republic > (cited > on the website as an example of a source of "talent") produces such > extraordinary baseball players. It's not a pretty picture, similar to > what Jim > describes for the pool in Brazil, but is given in more detail in the > following article: > > http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1028-25.htm > > I am frequently confused when a person uses the word "talent" because > it is > not clear what they mean by it. Often it is a fundamental attribution > error, > that is, it seems to be more valid to explain a person's behavior by > focusing on > dispositional variables (e.g., "native intelligence", "native skill", > "heart", > desire or motivation or other personality or person-based variables > instead of (a) the > environment in which the behavior is observed or an > individual-environment > interaction and/or (b) a history of training and development under a > number > of wise and intelligent mentors). Like the Just World Hypothesis, many > people > like to think that a person's achievements reflect solely on their > efforts and > "talents" while in truth the achievement probably could not have been > made > without the assistance/input of a large number of people (just watch > the ending > credits of a movie to get a sense of how many people need to be involved > in that enterprise). > > -Mike Palij > New York University > [email protected] > > --------------------- > From: Joan Warmbold <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Book Recommendations > Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2011 16:56:17 -0600 > Daniel Coyle makes a convincing case for otherwise. He noted over and > over again the so-called hot beds had two crucial elements: a) a person > who provided inspiration, or in his words, "ignition,"; and then, b) > opportunity for lots of deep practice. What was fairly unique to > Brazil was that from the age of 5 to 10 or so the boys play an > alternate version of soccer called futsal. It's indoors with a field > have the size and so provides the players 6 times the opportunity to > practice--i.e., far more intense and engaging. He also cites a study > of 157 randomly chosen children who were planning on taking musical > lessons and followed them from a few weeks before they started their > lessons through high school. The factor that best predicted who would > end up at the top were the answers they gave to the question, "How long > do you plan to play this instrument?" The researcher then organized > the answers into three groups: low/medium/high level of and it was the > children who had the high level commitment that consistently came out > on top. He also notes a number of times that teachers predictions of > who will come out on top relative to their apparent gift or talent does > not correlate well at all with who does end up at the top. His > contention is that kids who are ignited by a role model (Anna > Kournikova in Russia; Andruw Jones-correct spelling-from small island > of Caracao who each ignited a passion for tennis and baseball, > respectively. Jim, your point certainly sounds logical as, with all > the competition, how could genetic potential not be part of the > equation. But what Coyle does make a very convincing case for is that > children's environmental experiences are the most important part of the > formula. He does go further to make the case that genetic > predisposition is not part of the equation at all, or if so, a very > small part. Have you read the entire book? I was impressed with the > role of the growth of the myelin tissue that occurs when a child > practices intensely for that required 10,000 hours. > > Joan > [email protected] > > > > > > > Thanks for your book recommendation Carol--sounds very interesting if > not > upsetting. Two books I would highly recommend (or have I > already--yikes) > are: Talent Code by Coyle--incredible book on the hot spots around the > globe that have produced extraordinary numbers of very gifted and highly > motivated children in soccer, the arts, tennis, etc. And the source of > these high numbers of gifted children/young adults is not genetic folks. > > I'd like to tie this up with Stephen and Scott's posts on myths. There > seems to be a myth that it is widely believed that exceptional talent > > > > > Jim Clark wrote > The emerging superstars, relatively numerous at the star level, would > be a very > tiny proportion of all the poor kids playing soccer in Brazil. I would > be very > surprised if genes did not play some part in the radical sorting > process that > led some few to stardom and the rest to whatever miserable fate awaits > them once > their dreams of glory are shattered by reality. > > > Mike Palij wrote: > Like the Just World Hypothesis, many people > like to think that a person's achievements reflect solely on their > efforts and > "talents" while in truth the achievement probably could not have been > made > without the assistance/input of a large number of people (just watch > the ending > credits of a movie to get a sense of how many people need to be involved > in that enterprise). > > > > > Miguel Roig-Reardon wrote: >>Speaking of people with amazing abilities, >>check out this kid: >>Bluejay: the mind of a child prodigy: >>http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7186319n. > > An extraordinary talent. What places this kid in a different category > from other child musical prodigies (he turns a page of a Beethoven > sonata upside down and plays the music backwards on sight) is his > prodigious spontaneous composing talent. Well worth checking this one > out. Thanks, Miguel. > > Allen Esterson > Former lecturer, Science Department > Southwark College, London > [email protected] > http://www.esterson.org > > > --------------------------------------------- > From: Joan Warmbold <[email protected]> > Subject: Book Recommendations > Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 13:12:44 -0600 (CST) > Thanks for your book recommendation Carol--sounds very interesting if > not > upsetting. Two books I would highly recommend (or have I > already--yikes) > are: Talent Code by Coyle--incredible book on the hot spots around the > globe that have produced extraordinary numbers of very gifted and highly > motivated children in soccer, the arts, tennis, etc. And the source of > these high numbers of gifted children/young adults is not genetic folks. > > http://www.thesimplerlife.net/2010/05/22/book-review-the-talent-code/ > > The second book that's a must read is "Safe Patients, Smart Hospitals." > Peter Pronovost. A review is below--and I now will only go to a > hospital > that uses the team and check-list system described in this book if I > need > care for any type of serious health issue. > > http://us.penguingroup.com/nf/Book/BookDisplay/0,,9781594630644,00.html > > Hmmm. . . this is ringing too many bells so sorry for the > redundancy--but > they are really good! Would love to hear from others recommended good > reads! > > > Joan > Joan (Warmbold) Boggs > Professor of Psychology > Oakton Community College > [email protected] > > -------------------------------------- > From: Jim Clark <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Book Recommendations > Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2011 13:41:10 -0600 > Hi > > One of the "hot spots" mentioned is Brazil and soccer players. Here's > a passage > from a site celebrating Brazilian soccer. > > "The majority of the people living in Brazil are in deep poverty. > Soccer is the > one ticket out of that lifestyle if the talent is learned early enough. > Many of > the popular soccer players on the Brazil soccer team came from very > poor > backgrounds, learning soccer at a very young age." > > The emerging superstars, relatively numerous at the star level, would > be a very > tiny proportion of all the poor kids playing soccer in Brazil. I would > be very > surprised if genes did not play some part in the radical sorting > process that > led some few to stardom and the rest to whatever miserable fate awaits > them once > their dreams of glory are shattered by reality. > > Take care > Jim > > > James M. Clark > Professor of Psychology > 204-786-9757 > 204-774-4134 Fax > [email protected] > > From: Mike Palij <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Book Recommendations > Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 16:26:09 -0500 > On Wed, 05 Jan 2011 11:41:44 -0800, Jim Clark wrote in response to Joan > Warmbold's recommendation of the "Talent Code" by Daniel Coyle: >>Hi >>One of the "hot spots" mentioned is Brazil and soccer players. Here's > a >>passage from a site celebrating Brazilian soccer. >> >>"The majority of the people living in Brazil are in deep poverty. > Soccer is the > >>one ticket out of that lifestyle if the talent is learned early > enough. Many of > >>the popular soccer players on the Brazil soccer team came from very > poor >>backgrounds, learning soccer at a very young age." >> >>The emerging superstars, relatively numerous at the star level, would > be a >>very tiny proportion of all the poor kids playing soccer in Brazil. I > would be > >>very surprised if genes did not play some part in the radical sorting > process >>that led some few to stardom and the rest to whatever miserable fate > awaits >>them once their dreams of glory are shattered by reality. > > Jim's comments triggered my memory for why the Dominican Republic > (cited > on the website as an example of a source of "talent") produces such > extraordinary > baseball players. It's not a pretty picture, similar to what Jim > describes for > the pool in Brazil, but is given in more detail in the following > article: > > http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1028-25.htm > > I am frequently confused when a person uses the word "talent" because > it is > not clear what they mean by it. Often it is a fundamental attribution > error, > that is, it seems to be more valid to explain a person's behavior by > focusing on > dispositional variables (e.g., "native intelligence", "native skill", > "heart", > desire or motivation or other personality or person-based variables > instead of (a) the > environment in which the behavior is observed or an > individual-environment > interaction and/or (b) a history of training and development under a > number > of wise and intelligent mentors). Like the Just World Hypothesis, many > people > like to think that a person's achievements reflect solely on their > efforts and > "talents" while in truth the achievement probably could not have been > made > without the assistance/input of a large number of people (just watch > the ending > credits of a movie to get a sense of how many people need to be involved > in that enterprise). > > -Mike Palij > New York University > [email protected] > > --------------------- > From: Joan Warmbold <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Book Recommendations > Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2011 16:56:17 -0600 > > Daniel Coyle makes a convincing case for otherwise. He noted over and > over again the so-called hot beds had two crucial elements: a) a person > who provided inspiration, or in his words, "ignition,"; and then, b) > opportunity for lots of deep practice. What was fairly unique to > Brazil was that from the age of 5 to 10 or so the boys play an > alternate version of soccer called futsal. It's indoors with a field > have the size and so provides the players 6 times the opportunity to > practice--i.e., far more intense and engaging. He also cites a study > of 157 randomly chosen children who were planning on taking musical > lessons and followed them from a few weeks before they started their > lessons through high school. The factor that best predicted who would > end up at the top were the answers they gave to the question, "How long > do you plan to play this instrument?" The researcher then organized > the answers into three groups: low/medium/high level of and it was the > children who had the high level commitment that consistently came out > on top. He also notes a number of times that teachers predictions of > who will come out on top relative to their apparent gift or talent does > not correlate well at all with who does end up at the top. His > contention is that kids who are ignited by a role model (Anna > Kournikova in Russia; Andruw Jones-correct spelling-from small island > of Caracao who each ignited a passion for tennis and baseball, > respectively. Jim, your point certainly sounds logical as, with all > the competition, how could genetic potential not be part of the > equation. But what Coyle does make a very convincing case for is that > children's environmental experiences are the most important part of the > formula. He does go further to make the case that genetic > predisposition is not part of the equation at all, or if so, a very > small part. Have you read the entire book? I was impressed with the > role of the growth of the myelin tissue that occurs when a child > practices intensely for that required 10,000 hours. > > Joan > [email protected] > > > > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to tips as: [email protected]. > To unsubscribe click here: > http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13509.d0999cebc8f4ed4eb54d5317367e9b2f&n=T&l=tips&o=7701 > or send a blank email to > leave-7701-13509.d0999cebc8f4ed4eb54d5317367e9...@fsulist.frostburg.edu > > This e-mail message (including any attachments) is for the sole use of > the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged > information. If the reader of this message is not the intended > recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution > or copying of this message (including any attachments) is strictly > prohibited. > > If you have received this message in error, please contact > the sender by reply e-mail message and destroy all copies of the > original message (including attachments). > > --- > You are currently subscribed to tips as: [email protected]. > To unsubscribe click here: > http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=49240.d374d0c18780e492c3d2e63f91752d0d&n=T&l=tips&o=7703 > or send a blank email to > leave-7703-49240.d374d0c18780e492c3d2e63f91752...@fsulist.frostburg.edu > > --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: [email protected]. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=7726 or send a blank email to leave-7726-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
