More to the point, would they have hired her if she had expressed support for one of those groups at a job interview?
On Dec 19, 2015, at 12:22 PM, Christopher Green <[email protected]> wrote: > Paul, > > There are, of course, a number of Christian sects that reject the trinity > too. Unitarianism is the obvious one. The Mormons too, I think. Perhaps one > other of the big American post-Protestant denominations of the Second Great > Awakening? (Jehovah's Witness, Pentecostal, Seventh Day Adventist, Christian > Science, etc.). Would Wheaton have fired this professor if she had visibly > expressed support for one of those groups when they were under widespread > social attack? I can't say for sure, obviously, but I know where I would > place my bets. > > Chris > ....... > Christopher D Green > Department of Psychology > York University > Toronto, ON M3J 1P3 > 43.773759, -79.503722 > > [email protected] > http://www.yorku.ca/christo > > On Dec 19, 2015, at 11:43 AM, Paul Brandon <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Mike— >> I assume that -you- have read Wheaton’s statement; I’m less sure about other >> readers. >> Certainly there is a theological argument for the statement that everyone >> worships the same god (I read a children’s book to that effect sixty+ years >> ago). However, the many fundamentalist sects of Christianity manage to make >> a big deal of minor theological differences. >> And while the three ‘Abrahamic’ religions share the Old Testament, they use >> different translations; sometimes significantly (I’m thinking of the >> Christian version of Isaiah used to predict the coming of Christ). >> >> And wandering off into theology, I sometimes thing that Islam is the only >> pure monotheism. >> Judaism states clearly that you shall worship no one but the Lord — the >> Torah is less clear about the existence of other gods. >> As for Christianity, 1 = 3 and the whole panoply of demigods (saints)….. >> >> On Dec 19, 2015, at 8:18 AM, Mike Palij <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 13:47:28 -0600, Paul Brandon wrote: >>>> If you read the Wheaton College statement of faith that >>>> you’ve linked to, >>> >>> Paul, of course I read the statement of faith -- do you think >>> I post links to sites that I don't examine and understand? >>> >>>> you would see that the god that Wheaton College worships >>>> is the Trinity (they are very explicit in their Statement of Faith), >>> >>> Perhaps you are unaware that Catholics hold the same belief, >>> the most obvious proponent being Pope Francis, thus the >>> significance of Prof. Larycia Hawkins mention of the Pope's >>> statement "we worship the same God". Indeed, the >>> concept of "Abrahamic Religious Tradition" is that Judaism, >>> Christinaity, and Islam use the same sources (e.g., all three >>> use the Jewish Torah or Old Testament as one of their >>> foundational texts and last I checked that source's construct >>> of God is that it a unitary entity -- are you saying that Christians >>> of Wheaton reject the old Testament becase it doesn't subscibe >>> to the pothytheistic construct of a Trinity existing as a Unity?) >>> all three religious traditions make different interpretations of >>> those texts and the only question, I think, that remains is whether >>> the interpetations are tolerant and ecumenical (i.e., " we are >>> all more similar than we are different") or intolerant and divise >>> (i.e., "we KNOW THE TRUTH and if you don't believe as we >>> do you are an apostate and heretic"; for a little more on this point, >>> see: >>> https://imspeakingtruth.wordpress.com/2008/06/26/apostasy-vs-heresy/ ). >>> >>> Of course, the move from the unitary monotheism of Judaism to the >>> polytheistic unity of Christianity is something that both Judaism and >>> Islam reject yet the concept of God (the Father) remains the same in all >>> three. The problems of having a polytheistic monotheism is presented >>> best in Clint Eastwood's movie "Million Dollar Baby" where he needles >>> his parish preist with questions about whether there is one God or >>> three. For those who haven't see this movie or forget the scene, here >>> a clip on The YouTube: >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCoRyXUnTTU >>> I don't know how the folks at Wheaton interpret this concept -- remember >>> that language is a slippery thing and what is expressed is not understood >>> in the way that speaker intended -- but since they are a derivative religion >>> from Catholicism (part of the Protestant range of religions that range from >>> snaker handlers to Mormons and everything in between) I think both >>> Prof. Hawkins and Pope Francis got it right: Abrahamic religions do >>> worship the same God, they just interpret the construct differently. >>> For more on this point, I suggest looking at the followig: >>> >>> Volf, Miroslav. Do we worship the same God?: Jews, Christians, and >>> Muslims in dialogue. Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, 2012. >>> >>> Especially the chapter by Peter Ochs "Do We Worship the Same God?", >>> part of which is availabe on Google books; see: >>> https://books.google.com/books?id=aX9NQ5JaANQC&pg=PA153&dq=Kammuna,+Ibn+%281971%29.+Examination+of+the+Three+Faiths.+Berkeley+and+Los+Angeles:+Moshe+Perlmann.+pp.+148%E2%80%9349.&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjH5OmCg-jJAhVLLyYKHa0RBrMQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=%22do%20we%20worship%20the%20same%20God%3F%22&f=false >>> >>> Ultimately, it comes down to what one believes or WANTS TO BELIEVE. >>> Religion is not an empirical enterprise subject to empirical verification >>> and falsification -- the choice to be inclusive or exclusive is a human >>> and social issue though, and may not be based on actualy religious >>> doctrine but on ordinary human biases (e.g., anit-papistry). If Wheaton >>> chooses to believe it is "SPECIAL" and the God it believes in is not >>> anyone else's God, well, I guess they are entitled to that belief though >>> it make it harder to defend against alternatives like relgiions based >>> on science fiction stories and space aliens who can use the same argument. >>> If Wheaton want to claim that the God of Islam is not the same God as >>> the Jews or other Christians, they can do so. But is it also marks them >>> as being divisive in contrast to inclusive -- which may be exactly what >>> they want if they feel only they have the one true faith. >>> >>> Personally, I think they're anti-papists. ;-) >>> >>>> a concept absent in Islam. I can see why a fundamentalist organization >>>> such as Wheaton would hold that Islam does not worship the same god >>>> as they do, and that by equating the god of Islam with the God of Wheaton, >>>> Dr. Hawkins was violating the terms of her contract. >>> >>> Since Jesus Christ never wrote down his beliefs or directions on how >>> to interpret his teachings and the writing of the Gospels of the New >>> Testament >>> took place some 30-60 years after his death -- the selections of which >>> writings would become "canonical" and make it into the New Testament >>> and which would be banned (e.g., the Gospel of Judas), what God is in >>> the Christian tradition is open to interpretation though "true believers" >>> may feel that their interpetation is THE correct one. Bart Ehrman is good >>> at making this point in his book "Misquoting Jesus"; see: >>> http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Bart-D-Ehrman-ebook/dp/B000SEGJF8/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1450533001&sr=1-1&keywords=misquoting+jesus >>> >>> If the "God of Wheaton" doesn't like the Muslims or want to be indentified >>> with them, I guess that is their choice. But after 12 years of Catholic >>> school, 5 years of teaching at Yeshiva University, and having had Muslim >>> students (from modern/cultural to devout), I've come to position that it's >>> probably better to be inclusive than exclusive. But we really, really need >>> to be careful about using religious beliefs as a shield to advocate bigotry >>> and a weapon of oppression. >>> >>> Oh, and Happy Holidays! ;-) >>> >>> -Mike Palij >>> New York University >>> [email protected] >>> >>> P.S. Note to Christians: if you follow the Gregorian calendar, Christmas >>> is December 25. If you follow the Julian (old) calendar, it's January 7 >>> unless you are an Orthodox Armenian Christian in which case Christmas >>> is observed on January 6. I don't know when the "God of Wheaton" >>> commands his followers to celebrate Christmas (remember that not all >>> Christians have celebrated Christmas; the Puritans actually outlawed >>> it in Massachusetts in their early days there -- if the New Testament is >>> correct, Jesus was probably born at some other time like the spring >>> but early on Christians didn't concentrate on Christmas, it became >>> important after it was realized that the end times weren't coming as >>> soon as people thought). >>> >>> As for myself, I'll celebrate the winter solstice and not because I'm >>> pagan (I'm not) but because the days grow longer after the date. >>> However, if you believe that God is part of all life, all nature, and all >>> reality, then one could do much worse than celebrate the winter solstice. >>> >>> >>>> On Dec 16, 2015, at 10:08 PM, Mike Palij <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Wed, 16 Dec 2015 16:44:20 -0800, Paul Brandon wrote:> >>>>>> In this case, the college is religious; effectively a branch of a church, >>>>>> and the contract requires adherence to the church's religious principles. >>>>>> She signed her contract knowing this. >>>>> >>>>> I understand this but you're implying that the religious sect running >>>>> the college really doesn't believe that there is only one God in >>>>> the Abrahamic religious tradition. The "Statement of Faith" that >>>>> Wheaton uses does not explicitly state this -- see: >>>>> http://www.wheaton.edu/About-Wheaton/Statement-of-Faith-and-Educational-Purpose >>>>> >>>>> So, how does her comment violate this statement. Quoting from >>>>> the NY Time article, >>>>> >>>>> |"I stand in religious solidarity with Muslims because they, >>>>> | like me, a Christian, are people of the book," she wrote, >>>>> |in part. "And as Pope Francis stated last week, we worship >>>>> |the same God." >>>>> >>>>> Or was it her mention of Pope Francis that got her into trouble? >>>>> Are the folks running the college anti-papist? See the Wikipedia >>>>> entry >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anti-Papist&redirect=no >>>>> which will probably redirect to this entry: >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anti-Catholicism&redirect=no >>>>> >>>>> -Mike Palij >>>>> New York University >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Dec 16, 2015, at 3:04 PM, Mike Palij wrote: >>>>>> Can a tenured faculty member be fired for being a heretic? We'll >>>>>> see but for now see the following: >>>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/17/us/wheaton-college-professor-larycia-hawkins-muslim-scarf.html?_r=0 >>>>>> >>>>>> No wonder Trump is so popular. >>>>>> >>>>>> Do evangelicals not consider Islam one of the Abrahamic religions? >>>>>> See: >>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions >>>> >> Brandon Emeritus Professor of Psychology Minnesota State University, Mankato [email protected] --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: [email protected]. 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