The Jesuits do a good job. Reason and consistency can refer to internal coherence, not necessarily to agreement with the real world (external observations).
On Dec 19, 2015, at 2:31 PM, Jim Clark <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi > > Does anyone expect reason or consistency from religious organizations? > > Jim > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Dec 19, 2015, at 2:15 PM, "Paul Brandon" <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> >> More to the point, would they have hired her if she had expressed support >> for one of those groups at a job interview? >> >> On Dec 19, 2015, at 12:22 PM, Christopher Green <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Paul, >>> >>> There are, of course, a number of Christian sects that reject the trinity >>> too. Unitarianism is the obvious one. The Mormons too, I think. Perhaps one >>> other of the big American post-Protestant denominations of the Second Great >>> Awakening? (Jehovah's Witness, Pentecostal, Seventh Day Adventist, >>> Christian Science, etc.). Would Wheaton have fired this professor if she >>> had visibly expressed support for one of those groups when they were under >>> widespread social attack? I can't say for sure, obviously, but I know where >>> I would place my bets. >>> >>> Chris >>> ....... >>> Christopher D Green >>> Department of Psychology >>> York University >>> Toronto, ON M3J 1P3 >>> 43.773759, -79.503722 >>> >>> [email protected] >>> http://www.yorku.ca/christo >>> >>> On Dec 19, 2015, at 11:43 AM, Paul Brandon <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Mike— >>>> I assume that -you- have read Wheaton’s statement; I’m less sure about >>>> other readers. >>>> Certainly there is a theological argument for the statement that everyone >>>> worships the same god (I read a children’s book to that effect sixty+ >>>> years ago). However, the many fundamentalist sects of Christianity manage >>>> to make a big deal of minor theological differences. >>>> And while the three ‘Abrahamic’ religions share the Old Testament, they >>>> use different translations; sometimes significantly (I’m thinking of the >>>> Christian version of Isaiah used to predict the coming of Christ). >>>> >>>> And wandering off into theology, I sometimes thing that Islam is the only >>>> pure monotheism. >>>> Judaism states clearly that you shall worship no one but the Lord — the >>>> Torah is less clear about the existence of other gods. >>>> As for Christianity, 1 = 3 and the whole panoply of demigods (saints)….. >>>> >>>> On Dec 19, 2015, at 8:18 AM, Mike Palij <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 13:47:28 -0600, Paul Brandon wrote: >>>>>> If you read the Wheaton College statement of faith that >>>>>> you’ve linked to, >>>>> >>>>> Paul, of course I read the statement of faith -- do you think >>>>> I post links to sites that I don't examine and understand? >>>>> >>>>>> you would see that the god that Wheaton College worships >>>>>> is the Trinity (they are very explicit in their Statement of Faith), >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps you are unaware that Catholics hold the same belief, >>>>> the most obvious proponent being Pope Francis, thus the >>>>> significance of Prof. Larycia Hawkins mention of the Pope's >>>>> statement "we worship the same God". Indeed, the >>>>> concept of "Abrahamic Religious Tradition" is that Judaism, >>>>> Christinaity, and Islam use the same sources (e.g., all three >>>>> use the Jewish Torah or Old Testament as one of their >>>>> foundational texts and last I checked that source's construct >>>>> of God is that it a unitary entity -- are you saying that Christians >>>>> of Wheaton reject the old Testament becase it doesn't subscibe >>>>> to the pothytheistic construct of a Trinity existing as a Unity?) >>>>> all three religious traditions make different interpretations of >>>>> those texts and the only question, I think, that remains is whether >>>>> the interpetations are tolerant and ecumenical (i.e., " we are >>>>> all more similar than we are different") or intolerant and divise >>>>> (i.e., "we KNOW THE TRUTH and if you don't believe as we >>>>> do you are an apostate and heretic"; for a little more on this point, >>>>> see: >>>>> https://imspeakingtruth.wordpress.com/2008/06/26/apostasy-vs-heresy/ ). >>>>> >>>>> Of course, the move from the unitary monotheism of Judaism to the >>>>> polytheistic unity of Christianity is something that both Judaism and >>>>> Islam reject yet the concept of God (the Father) remains the same in all >>>>> three. The problems of having a polytheistic monotheism is presented >>>>> best in Clint Eastwood's movie "Million Dollar Baby" where he needles >>>>> his parish preist with questions about whether there is one God or >>>>> three. For those who haven't see this movie or forget the scene, here >>>>> a clip on The YouTube: >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCoRyXUnTTU >>>>> I don't know how the folks at Wheaton interpret this concept -- remember >>>>> that language is a slippery thing and what is expressed is not understood >>>>> in the way that speaker intended -- but since they are a derivative >>>>> religion >>>>> from Catholicism (part of the Protestant range of religions that range >>>>> from >>>>> snaker handlers to Mormons and everything in between) I think both >>>>> Prof. Hawkins and Pope Francis got it right: Abrahamic religions do >>>>> worship the same God, they just interpret the construct differently. >>>>> For more on this point, I suggest looking at the followig: >>>>> >>>>> Volf, Miroslav. Do we worship the same God?: Jews, Christians, and >>>>> Muslims in dialogue. Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, 2012. >>>>> >>>>> Especially the chapter by Peter Ochs "Do We Worship the Same God?", >>>>> part of which is availabe on Google books; see: >>>>> https://books.google.com/books?id=aX9NQ5JaANQC&pg=PA153&dq=Kammuna,+Ibn+%281971%29.+Examination+of+the+Three+Faiths.+Berkeley+and+Los+Angeles:+Moshe+Perlmann.+pp.+148%E2%80%9349.&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjH5OmCg-jJAhVLLyYKHa0RBrMQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=%22do%20we%20worship%20the%20same%20God%3F%22&f=false >>>>> >>>>> Ultimately, it comes down to what one believes or WANTS TO BELIEVE. >>>>> Religion is not an empirical enterprise subject to empirical verification >>>>> and falsification -- the choice to be inclusive or exclusive is a human >>>>> and social issue though, and may not be based on actualy religious >>>>> doctrine but on ordinary human biases (e.g., anit-papistry). If Wheaton >>>>> chooses to believe it is "SPECIAL" and the God it believes in is not >>>>> anyone else's God, well, I guess they are entitled to that belief though >>>>> it make it harder to defend against alternatives like relgiions based >>>>> on science fiction stories and space aliens who can use the same argument. >>>>> If Wheaton want to claim that the God of Islam is not the same God as >>>>> the Jews or other Christians, they can do so. But is it also marks them >>>>> as being divisive in contrast to inclusive -- which may be exactly what >>>>> they want if they feel only they have the one true faith. >>>>> >>>>> Personally, I think they're anti-papists. ;-) >>>>> >>>>>> a concept absent in Islam. I can see why a fundamentalist organization >>>>>> such as Wheaton would hold that Islam does not worship the same god >>>>>> as they do, and that by equating the god of Islam with the God of >>>>>> Wheaton, >>>>>> Dr. Hawkins was violating the terms of her contract. >>>>> >>>>> Since Jesus Christ never wrote down his beliefs or directions on how >>>>> to interpret his teachings and the writing of the Gospels of the New >>>>> Testament >>>>> took place some 30-60 years after his death -- the selections of which >>>>> writings would become "canonical" and make it into the New Testament >>>>> and which would be banned (e.g., the Gospel of Judas), what God is in >>>>> the Christian tradition is open to interpretation though "true believers" >>>>> may feel that their interpetation is THE correct one. Bart Ehrman is good >>>>> at making this point in his book "Misquoting Jesus"; see: >>>>> http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Bart-D-Ehrman-ebook/dp/B000SEGJF8/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1450533001&sr=1-1&keywords=misquoting+jesus >>>>> >>>>> If the "God of Wheaton" doesn't like the Muslims or want to be indentified >>>>> with them, I guess that is their choice. But after 12 years of Catholic >>>>> school, 5 years of teaching at Yeshiva University, and having had Muslim >>>>> students (from modern/cultural to devout), I've come to position that it's >>>>> probably better to be inclusive than exclusive. But we really, really >>>>> need >>>>> to be careful about using religious beliefs as a shield to advocate >>>>> bigotry >>>>> and a weapon of oppression. >>>>> >>>>> Oh, and Happy Holidays! ;-) >>>>> >>>>> -Mike Palij >>>>> New York University >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> P.S. Note to Christians: if you follow the Gregorian calendar, Christmas >>>>> is December 25. If you follow the Julian (old) calendar, it's January 7 >>>>> unless you are an Orthodox Armenian Christian in which case Christmas >>>>> is observed on January 6. I don't know when the "God of Wheaton" >>>>> commands his followers to celebrate Christmas (remember that not all >>>>> Christians have celebrated Christmas; the Puritans actually outlawed >>>>> it in Massachusetts in their early days there -- if the New Testament is >>>>> correct, Jesus was probably born at some other time like the spring >>>>> but early on Christians didn't concentrate on Christmas, it became >>>>> important after it was realized that the end times weren't coming as >>>>> soon as people thought). >>>>> >>>>> As for myself, I'll celebrate the winter solstice and not because I'm >>>>> pagan (I'm not) but because the days grow longer after the date. >>>>> However, if you believe that God is part of all life, all nature, and all >>>>> reality, then one could do much worse than celebrate the winter solstice. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 16, 2015, at 10:08 PM, Mike Palij <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, 16 Dec 2015 16:44:20 -0800, Paul Brandon wrote:> >>>>>>>> In this case, the college is religious; effectively a branch of a >>>>>>>> church, >>>>>>>> and the contract requires adherence to the church's religious >>>>>>>> principles. >>>>>>>> She signed her contract knowing this. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I understand this but you're implying that the religious sect running >>>>>>> the college really doesn't believe that there is only one God in >>>>>>> the Abrahamic religious tradition. The "Statement of Faith" that >>>>>>> Wheaton uses does not explicitly state this -- see: >>>>>>> http://www.wheaton.edu/About-Wheaton/Statement-of-Faith-and-Educational-Purpose >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So, how does her comment violate this statement. Quoting from >>>>>>> the NY Time article, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> |"I stand in religious solidarity with Muslims because they, >>>>>>> | like me, a Christian, are people of the book," she wrote, >>>>>>> |in part. "And as Pope Francis stated last week, we worship >>>>>>> |the same God." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Or was it her mention of Pope Francis that got her into trouble? >>>>>>> Are the folks running the college anti-papist? See the Wikipedia >>>>>>> entry >>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anti-Papist&redirect=no >>>>>>> which will probably redirect to this entry: >>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anti-Catholicism&redirect=no >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -Mike Palij >>>>>>> New York University >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 16, 2015, at 3:04 PM, Mike Palij wrote: >>>>>>>> Can a tenured faculty member be fired for being a heretic? We'll >>>>>>>> see but for now see the following: >>>>>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/17/us/wheaton-college-professor-larycia-hawkins-muslim-scarf.html?_r=0 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> No wonder Trump is so popular. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Do evangelicals not consider Islam one of the Abrahamic religions? >>>>>>>> See: >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions >>>>>> Paul Brandon Emeritus Professor of Psychology Minnesota State University, Mankato [email protected] --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: [email protected]. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=47638 or send a blank email to leave-47638-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
