Warning: possible OT stuff below. Javier seems to have found his path
already based on his last messages. I hope mainly he as the OP doesn't mind.
On 05.03.2013 23:47, Olemis Lang wrote:
I'd advocate using the second . Let's just choose the ORM ;)
My spidey sense is telling me world doesn't really need yet another
web framework. I think it would make (at least for business) sense
to port the modules on top of bigger frameworks.
-1 The foundations of Trac are rock solid.
I don't doubt this. My only concern is the size of a general purpose
plugin ecosystem around Trac today *and in foreseeable future*. Compared
to WordPress, which is what I'm working with currently day to day, we're
talking a drop in a bucket. And WP started as a simple blog engine, just
like Trac started as a simple issue tracker. Today WP a really solid
general purpose app platform with *massive* code drop-in and reuse
options via https://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/ (23,824 plugins,
422,393,833 downloads, and counting) + themes + countless commercial
plugin product offers.
Means you get various real business done on it with a fraction of exotic
platform costs, aside from having to go through discovering some
terrible PHP programmers and alternatives to their packages. But that's
peanuts compared to writing stuff from scratch.
To me, all this DAL or no-DAL, Django or no-Django etc is connected this
way. At the very basic level, Trac does some very important things for
me very well. Which is also probably why we're all sitting here and
don't completely move on to something else.
It'd be really, really nice (dare I say profitable) to get even more out
of it for everyone.
So in my case, it either means separate interconnected systems (leave
Trac as it is, build other stuff in some other framework, connect via
RPC or whatever) or writing a looott of new Trac-stuff from scratch.
Trac shopping cart, anybody? Real trac-hacks marketplace, anybody? Just
a few examples that interest me on top of the issue tracking awesomeness
we have today :)
But when I'm looking at how long it takes for a *whole team, focused* to
develop a solid e-commerce solution
https://github.com/woothemes/woocommerce (WP)
https://github.com/diefenbach/django-lfs (Django)
http://www.satchmoproject.com/ (Django)
these take about 2 years just to reach a solid 1.0 + another year for 2.0.
It just feels like we're all going to grow grey and old, before anything
reasonable could be achieved going in the "write new implementations of
world on top of Trac-as-web-framework" direction. Maybe that's overly
pessimistic, but software is hard (ironic eh) so the negative scenario
is always significantly more likely.
E-commerce is mainly as an example here; good or bad, maybe irrelevant.
It's just what I'm working with day to day, atm, and therefore thinking
about. Money makes stuff go around and I can't help feeling that it's
strange there seems to be almost no commercially supported Trac plugins
available. Anything besides Agilo out there?
Not to say a Trac marketplace couldn't be hosted on something else, but
trac-hacks is the center atm and we all see how painfully long the
development process is with it. If it had more of a selection of solid
drop-in plugins it could benefit from (even if commercial), maybe the
0.12 rewrite would've been done long ago and we'd all get to enjoy the
fruits before we have grey beards.
Maybe there would be more if there was more of a feel of being able to
build a business on Trac?
But there's no wide choice or business feel because... *maybe* partly
because there's no DAL, to start. New blood doesn't easily flow into the
ecosystem, just hacking along on a variety of world implementations,
significantly lifting the "created a plugin" count and with that comes
rise in "widely used, successful, maintained plugin" % chart. Obviously
it's also because Trac has never been advertised as a general purpose
web framework. But even if people discover this capability, they
probably pick an ORM-ified alternative because it's just simpler to try
stuff against. At the end of the day, it's all a % game.
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