************* The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] ************
Pete,
You did not duplicate. I did not say : The Church of Scientology. Besides, I never really was in the church other than a few days, 15 yrs ago. (I thought you should know that, because I am sure I have mentioned it more than once on this list. So I don't have nor had any connection with the cos. ) I said "scientologists" That means people in the fz for one thing. But what is more important, that you should know that Scientology is very different than the church of scientology. When we use the word "scientology" it means the philosophy of Scientology, not the cos. And the doctrine on victims and perpetrators is the same in TROM and Scientology. David From: [email protected] Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 20:42:48 -0700 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [TROM1] Perpetrators and victims ************* The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] ************ Hi David Well you threw everything in the pot and stirred it up as though it was all the same. TROM is a Solo Therapy which i use to find where i have lost control in my life and regain it. I have been a victim or loser in many games in my life and i am using TROM to understand what happened and release the deisions i made under duress. Timebreaking the anger, grief and apathy is good. The Church of Scientology is a for profit religion and corporation which is capable of being just as criminal as any other corporation or religion in history. The criminal justice system was delevoped thousands of years ago because the practice of Vendeta lead to never ending murders between families. Some way had to be found to stop the serial murders that revege caused and a government run system where all parties presented evidence and a judge and jury decided guilt and punishment broke the chain of revenge. it is a principle of law that all victims are blameless. I am sorry that you have had a hard life and hope you are feeling better about it with TROM. Keep on TROMing Pete Sent from my iPad On Jun 21, 2012, at 7:04 PM, Glen Strathy wrote: > ************* > The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] > ************ > This is an argument that has dominated so much of the self-improvement field, > no doubt thanks in part to Hubbard's influence. > > Do victims cause their own victimization? Is it right to blame the victim? > > Certainly, for most of human history, most people have found it makes more > sense to blame the perpetrator. That's how justice systems work in every > nation on earth. If someone is assaulted, we punish the perpetrator. We don't > say, "Hey, it's not your fault you smashed that guy's nose. Clearly he wanted > you to do it. In fact, he made you hit him." No, human justice has always > said that people are responsible for the actions they do to others, not for > the actions done to them. > > The problem is that violence and injustice traumatize its victims in a way > that punishing the perpetrator does not always erase. > > You can't change what someone has done to you, but you can change your > interpretation, your beliefs about it. So if a person who has been a victim > of violence can change how they see that event, so that they see it in a way > that empowers rather than disempowers them, then the ill effects of the > trauma can be cleared. > > Being victimized can make us conclude that we are powerless. > > It is more empowering to be able to look at a terrible, horrifying experience > and say, "I see now that I needed that event in order to teach myself that I > am capable of surviving anything." Or "I created that event because I wanted > to learn to have far greater empathy for other people caught in terrible > situations, and that has made me a stronger, better person." > > Such conclusions, enable forgiveness, which also is empowering - affirming > that we are strong enough not to be forever harmed by the event. > > However, I believe that same approach can be misused. It is one thing for a > person to reach an empowering conclusion that heals. It is another for > someone to tell them that their victimization is their own fault. Being made > wrong for something someone else did is not empowering. > > Blaming the victim is often used to excuse perpetrators from responsibility > for their actions. Perpetrators, bullies, con artists, etc. love to blame > victims because it gets them off the hook. > > It has been argued that many of the failings of Scientology stem from a habit > of blaming the victim. The organization is always made right and good, and > when it's not the fault is put on the victim. So when COB hits people, he > says its their own fault. > > As Denis points out, if auditing doesn't help a person, it's not the person's > fault. It may not be the auditor's either. It could be that Scientology has > errors in it. > > As Dennis also notes, Hubbard could not tolerate people pointing out his > mistakes - nor his lies, when it came down to it. So he made everyone else > wrong. That has resulted in a church unwilling to admit its failings, so it > blames everyone it has harmed. It takes away auditors freedom to exercise > their own judgement, and then blames them if the auditing goes wrong. That's > crazy-making. > > I believe you can overcome trauma and that you do not have to have your life > destroyed by someone else's actions. But I don't think you should let anyone > tell you it was all your fault. Children are not at fault if an adult abuses > them. Bullies are not innocent. Thieves do take things you don't want stolen. > And you don't help perpetrators become responsible people by putting blame on > the victims. > > > On 6/21/2012 7:43 PM, David M. Pelly wrote: >> ************* >> The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] >> ************ >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > "Calling a victim aberrated is an easy way to excuse the perpetrator and >> > pretend the injustice doesn't exist. If there was no pain or injustice >> > inflicted where does the aberration come from? Why not focus on the >> > abberration of the perpetrators, those who seek power by limiting the >> > power of others, often by inflicting pain and injustice? Clearly, misogyny >> > exists in their minds as well." >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> I am not sure who wrote the above but ...in regards to: >> >> >> >> the idea of perpetrator being the cause of problems.... >> >> >> is in contradiction to Dennis' and Hubbard's doctrine.. >> >> which says the victim made all the decisions to be victimized. >> >> >> >> I have been severely abused as a child and I have been told by every >> scientologist and then by the data in TROM that I was to blame and caused >> all my own suffering, all my own injustice. >> >> In other words, I made all my own postulates to be abused. >> >> >> So what are the facts???????????? >> >> I need to know the facts. >> >> >> >> David >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > Hi Glen >> > TROM does not focus on others misbehavior because there is no workable >> > technology to get others to behave nicely. >> > >> > If i want to be a victim in a game it doesn't matter how many criminals i >> > change into nice people I will find some one to be a victim to. >> > >> > The solution to all misbehavior in this universe is for me to find and >> > timebreak all the games i am compulsively playing and stop playing them. >> > When i am free to not play a game i will not end up being a victim of >> > someone elses game. >> > >> > Changing me is something i can do. It is a fix for the problem which is >> > totally under my control. >> > Changing others to make them nicer is not something i can do without force >> > and that then becomes an overt and puts me back into a compulsive game. >> > >> > The idea of "doing unto others as you would have them do unto you" is an >> > idea that has been around for at least 2500 years yet we still have people >> > misbehaving. it is a failed proposition to try changing others by telling >> > them ot be nice or forcing them to be nice with law enforcers. >> > >> > So Glen, >> > >> > Keep on TROMing >> > Pete >> > >> > Sent from my iPad >> > >> > On Jun 21, 2012, at 7:14 AM, Glen Strathy wrote: >> > >> > > ************* >> > > The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] >> > > ************ >> > > It also exists in that Hubbard quote, and in the unspoken rules - and >> > > sometimes written laws - of many societies. It is clearly visible to >> > > people outside the culture, but invisible to most participants. Hence, >> > > if you're inside it you don't believe it exists. >> > > >> > > I appreciate your point that some people can rise above those rules and >> > > exercise more power than what the rules would normally dictate for them, >> > > but individual exceptions do not negate what is normal. >> > > >> > > Calling a victim aberrated is an easy way to excuse the perpetrator and >> > > pretend the injustice doesn't exist. If there was no pain or injustice >> > > inflicted where does the aberration come from? Why not focus on the >> > > abberration of the perpetrators, those who seek power by limiting the >> > > power of others, often by inflicting pain and injustice? Clearly, >> > > misogyny exists in their minds as well. >> > > >> > > On 6/20/2012 11:18 PM, David M. Pelly wrote: >> > >> Misogyny only exists in the minds of aberrated women. >> > >> >> > >> And no where else. >> > > >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > Trom mailing list >> > > [email protected] >> > > http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Trom mailing list >> > [email protected] >> > http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Trom mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom > > > _______________________________________________ > Trom mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom Hi David Well you threw everything in the pot and stirred it up as though it was all the same. TROM is a Solo Therapy which i use to find where i have lost control in my life and regain it. I have been a victim or loser in many games in my life and i am using TROM to understand what happened and release the deisions i made under duress. Timebreaking the anger, grief and apathy is good. The Church of Scientology is a for profit religion and corporation which is capable of being just as criminal as any other corporation or religion in history. The criminal justice system was delevoped thousands of years ago because the practice of Vendeta lead to never ending murders between families. Some way had to be found to stop the serial murders that revege caused and a government run system where all parties presented evidence and a judge and jury decided guilt and punishment broke the chain of revenge. it is a principle of law that all victims are blameless. I am sorry that you have had a hard life and hope you are feeling better about it with TROM. Keep on TROMingPete Sent from my iPad On Jun 21, 2012, at 7:04 PM, Glen Strathy <[email protected]> wrote: ************* The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] ************ This is an argument that has dominated so much of the self-improvement field, no doubt thanks in part to Hubbard's influence. Do victims cause their own victimization? Is it right to blame the victim? Certainly, for most of human history, most people have found it makes more sense to blame the perpetrator. That's how justice systems work in every nation on earth. If someone is assaulted, we punish the perpetrator. We don't say, "Hey, it's not your fault you smashed that guy's nose. Clearly he wanted you to do it. In fact, he made you hit him." No, human justice has always said that people are responsible for the actions they do to others, not for the actions done to them. The problem is that violence and injustice traumatize its victims in a way that punishing the perpetrator does not always erase. You can't change what someone has done to you, but you can change your interpretation, your beliefs about it. So if a person who has been a victim of violence can change how they see that event, so that they see it in a way that empowers rather than disempowers them, then the ill effects of the trauma can be cleared. Being victimized can make us conclude that we are powerless. It is more empowering to be able to look at a terrible, horrifying experience and say, "I see now that I needed that event in order to teach myself that I am capable of surviving anything." Or "I created that event because I wanted to learn to have far greater empathy for other people caught in terrible situations, and that has made me a stronger, better person." Such conclusions, enable forgiveness, which also is empowering - affirming that we are strong enough not to be forever harmed by the event. However, I believe that same approach can be misused. It is one thing for a person to reach an empowering conclusion that heals. It is another for someone to tell them that their victimization is their own fault. Being made wrong for something someone else did is not empowering. Blaming the victim is often used to excuse perpetrators from responsibility for their actions. Perpetrators, bullies, con artists, etc. love to blame victims because it gets them off the hook. It has been argued that many of the failings of Scientology stem from a habit of blaming the victim. The organization is always made right and good, and when it's not the fault is put on the victim. So when COB hits people, he says its their own fault. As Denis points out, if auditing doesn't help a person, it's not the person's fault. It may not be the auditor's either. It could be that Scientology has errors in it. As Dennis also notes, Hubbard could not tolerate people pointing out his mistakes - nor his lies, when it came down to it. So he made everyone else wrong. That has resulted in a church unwilling to admit its failings, so it blames everyone it has harmed. It takes away auditors freedom to exercise their own judgement, and then blames them if the auditing goes wrong. That's crazy-making. I believe you can overcome trauma and that you do not have to have your life destroyed by someone else's actions. But I don't think you should let anyone tell you it was all your fault. Children are not at fault if an adult abuses them. Bullies are not innocent. Thieves do take things you don't want stolen. And you don't help perpetrators become responsible people by putting blame on the victims. On 6/21/2012 7:43 PM, David M. Pelly wrote: ************* The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] ************ > > > "Calling a victim aberrated is an easy way to excuse the perpetrator and pretend the injustice doesn't exist. If there was no pain or injustice inflicted where does the aberration come from? Why not focus on the abberration of the perpetrators, those who seek power by limiting the power of others, often by inflicting pain and injustice? Clearly, misogyny exists in their minds as well." > > I am not sure who wrote the above but ...in regards to: the idea of perpetrator being the cause of problems.... is in contradiction to Dennis' and Hubbard's doctrine.. which says the victim made all the decisions to be victimized. I have been severely abused as a child and I have been told by every scientologist and then by the data in TROM that I was to blame and caused all my own suffering, all my own injustice. In other words, I made all my own postulates to be abused. So what are the facts???????????? I need to know the facts. David > > Hi Glen > TROM does not focus on others misbehavior because there is no workable technology to get others to behave nicely. > > If i want to be a victim in a game it doesn't matter how many criminals i change into nice people I will find some one to be a victim to. > > The solution to all misbehavior in this universe is for me to find and timebreak all the games i am compulsively playing and stop playing them. When i am free to not play a game i will not end up being a victim of someone elses game. > > Changing me is something i can do. It is a fix for the problem which is totally under my control. > Changing others to make them nicer is not something i can do without force and that then becomes an overt and puts me back into a compulsive game. > > The idea of "doing unto others as you would have them do unto you" is an idea that has been around for at least 2500 years yet we still have people misbehaving. it is a failed proposition to try changing others by telling them ot be nice or forcing them to be nice with law enforcers. > > So Glen, > > Keep on TROMing > Pete > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jun 21, 2012, at 7:14 AM, Glen Strathy <[email protected]> wrote: > > > ************* > > The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] > > ************ > > It also exists in that Hubbard quote, and in the unspoken rules - and sometimes written laws - of many societies. It is clearly visible to people outside the culture, but invisible to most participants. Hence, if you're inside it you don't believe it exists. > > > > I appreciate your point that some people can rise above those rules and exercise more power than what the rules would normally dictate for them, but individual exceptions do not negate what is normal. > > > > Calling a victim aberrated is an easy way to excuse the perpetrator and pretend the injustice doesn't exist. If there was no pain or injustice inflicted where does the aberration come from? Why not focus on the abberration of the perpetrators, those who seek power by limiting the power of others, often by inflicting pain and injustice? Clearly, misogyny exists in their minds as well. > > > > On 6/20/2012 11:18 PM, David M. Pelly wrote: > >> Misogyny only exists in the minds of aberrated women. > >> > >> And no where else. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Trom mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom > _______________________________________________ > Trom mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom _______________________________________________ Trom mailing list [email protected] http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom _______________________________________________ Trom mailing list [email protected] http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom _______________________________________________ Trom mailing list [email protected] http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom
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