************* The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] ************
Good point, Robin
David On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 1:21 AM, The Resolution of Mind list < [email protected]> wrote: > ************* > The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] > ************ > Hi Pete, > > ok, it seems I get your viewpoint. We have said more or less something > similar. What I call "different approach" you see as the "three possible > methods". > > My understanding of a postulate apparently differs in so far from yours > as I see a postulate as something separated from the effect which the > postulate creates. In our example this would be: Postulate = "to smoke". > The effect(s) are: I light a cigarette, produce smoke, get a sore throat, > my wife complains about the bad smell, it makes me calm, ... > In short we could sum up the effects into "smokingness" ;-). > > create: make, manufacture, construct, postulate, bring into beingness. >> > > As far as I understand you, you associate very strong the postulating > with the effect. This seems to suggest itself; it seems practical because > the effect is so immediate when a postulate is made. > > It's great when it works so well for you. I sincerely wish it would work > as well for anyone else. > > I once audited someone on NED who stuttered. This PC regarded his > stuttering > as a severe problem which he wanted to have resolved. We went back along > a chain of incidents and found a postulate. PC finally had F/N, VGI's, > cognition. > The PC thanked me, the examiner was happy, case supervisor was happy, > Only I was slightly not so happy. The PC still stuttered. > > And why can David not make your proposed method work for him? > > Muriel Chen herself does not utter the word "postulate" a single time. > The book itself is excellent. Read it at first a couple years ago. > Reread it recently because you introduced it here. It's what it claims > to be - a first aid book. But beyond that? > > Best regards > > Robin > > > ----- > > > On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 19:34:51 +0100, <[email protected]> wrote: > > Send TROM mailing list submissions to >> [email protected] >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> [email protected] >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> [email protected] >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of TROM digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Postulate (e.g.. to stop smoking) - Re: TROM Digest, Vol 147, >> Issue 12 (The Resolution of Mind list) >> 2. Re: Postulate (e.g.. to stop smoking) - Re: TROM Digest, Vol >> 147, Issue 12 (The Resolution of Mind list) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2017 16:09:43 +0100 >> From: The Resolution of Mind list <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: [TROM1] Postulate (e.g.. to stop smoking) - Re: TROM Digest, >> Vol 147, Issue 12 >> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed; >> delsp=yes >> >> Hi Pete, >> >> when you stopped smoking, was it essential for you to go back >> to the moment where you decided to start smoking? >> >> Different approaches to this kind of problems are possible >> and whatever helped you to get rid of an unwanted habit is fine. >> In that respect there is no right or wrong way. >> >> You could have made as well a new postulate in PT which overrules >> the old one. People often do that when a new year starts. They say: >> "From now on I quit smoking." It does not work for all because >> they can not make this postulate "stick". But often enough it does. >> >> The example is on a relative low gradient. You have been most likely >> well aware when you smoked your first cigarette, no trauma involved. >> >> But the real severe aberrations are not so easily handled. You have >> to dig out the postulate(s) first. >> >> Dennis on L5 does not care about specific postulates. He uses a kind >> of abstraction. He lets you put up the most general package's (to know) >> postulates on both sides and then you see what pops up. You do not >> timebreake the postulate but the incidents, persons, feelings and so on. >> >> The point is, that a postulate does not belong to the same category >> as e.g. a mass, a charge, facsimiles, aso. >> >> A PC who does not make a differentiation between those things might >> think that he must "run" a postulate in order to "erase" it. >> Certainly we can let him find out the hard way. But is it not >> better to get a good grasp on the terms we use? >> >> >> Regards >> >> Robin >> >> >> ---- >> >> >> On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 13:00:02 +0100, <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> Send TROM mailing list submissions to >>> [email protected] >>> >>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>> [email protected] >>> >>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>> [email protected] >>> >>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>> than "Re: Contents of TROM digest..." >>> >>> >>> Today's Topics: >>> >>> 1. Postulates (2) - (Re: TROM Digest, Vol 147) >>> (The Resolution of Mind list) >>> 2. Re: Postulates (2) - (Re: TROM Digest, Vol 147) >>> (The Resolution of Mind list) >>> 3. Re: Fwd: Vorb's Trom Diary at 250 hours: The raging yawn - >>> (The Resolution of Mind list) >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2017 09:55:07 +0100 >>> From: The Resolution of Mind list <[email protected]> >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: [TROM1] Postulates (2) - (Re: TROM Digest, Vol 147) >>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes >>> >>> <snip> >>> >>>> >>>>> I have been doing that on different issues for years, and I can't say >>>>> I have had success. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> David >>>>> >>>>> <snip> >>> >>> >>> David, Pete, anyone concerned, >>> >>> most of the misunderstandings and questions about postulates do easily >>> resolve when you just look thoroughly at a couple of definitions. >>> Below you find the most important ones regarding the subject of >>> postulates, already brought into meaningful sequence: >>> >>> [POSTULATE, n. 1. a self-created truth would be simply the consideration >>> generated by self. Well, we just borrow the word which is in seldom use >>> in >>> the >>> English language, we call that postulate. And we mean by postulate, >>> selfcreated >>> truth. He posts something. He puts something up and that?s what a >>> postulate is. (HPC A6-4, 5608C--) 2. a postulate is, of course, that >>> thing >>> which is a directed desire or order, or inhibition, or enforcement, on >>> the >>> part >>> of the individual in the form of an idea. (2ACC 23A, 5312CM14) 3 . that >>> self determined thought which starts, stops or changes past, present or >>> future >>> efforts. >>> (APIA, p. 33) 4 . is actually a prediction. (5112CM30B)?v. 1 . in Scn the >>> word >>> postulate means to cause a thinkingness or consideration. It is a >>> specially >>> applied word and is defined as causative thinkingness. (FOT, p. 71) 2 . >>> to >>> conclude, decide or resolve a problem or to set a pattern for the future >>> or to >>> nullify a pattern of the past. (HFP, p. 155) 3 . to generate or ?think? a >>> concept. A postulate infers conditions and actions rather than just plain >>> thinks. It has a dynamic connotation. (SH Spec 84, 6612C13)] >>> >>> >>> There are a couple of flavors of postulates: >>> >>> [OPPOSITE POSTULATE, an individual who has made a postulate on a subject >>> experiences "failure" when he has to make an opposite postulate later. >>> The >>> opposite postulate has the effect of a negative postulate. The opposite >>> postulate is distinguished from a negative postulate because it depends >>> upon >>> effort which a negative postulate does not necessarily have to do. (AP&A, >>> P. >>> 34)] >>> >>> >>> (The above may be of special interest for those people who are concerned >>> with TROM.) >>> >>> [NEGATIVE POSTULATE, the postulate not to be. It cancels past postulates >>> and it also cancels, in greater or lesser degree, the entire individual. >>> (AP&A, >>> p. 34)] >>> >>> [PAST POSTULATES, decisions or conclusions the preclear has made in the >>> past >>> and to which he is still subjected in the present. Past postulates are >>> uniformly >>> invalid since they cannot resolve present environment. (NFP Gloss)] >>> >>> >>> This is not a definition per se, but an applicable notion: >>> >>> "The universe consists of life and postulates" - DHS >>> >>> Now, we are legitimate to substitute "life" with "theta". >>> They are not precisely synonymous but never the less we can get >>> some sense out of: "The Universe consists of Theta and postulates." >>> >>> Actually it answers a question, you David, recently posed. >>> It was the question regarding what a Thetan can do, what his >>> abilities are. >>> >>> The list of a Thetan's abilities is rather short. It contains >>> one item only: >>> >>> A Thetan postulates >>> >>> Well, does not look too impressive. But look again. This single >>> item covers it all. >>> >>> Now see the Scale Of Reality: >>> >>> [SCALE OF REALITY, 1. the reality scale refers to the individual?s hold >>> on >>> reality and his agreement with others on what reality is. (NOTL, p. 103) >>> 2 >>> . at >>> the bottom there is nothing, above that there is a communication line, >>> the >>> line >>> becomes more solid, then above that terminals begin to materialize >>> lightly >>> and >>> the line becomes less solid, then above that you have the terminals and >>> you >>> don?t have any lines, and above that the terminals are there mostly by >>> agreement, above that there is agreement, and above agreement there is >>> consideration, individual consideration, and above that there is >>> postulate. >>> That is the Scale of Reality. (PAB 154)] >>> >>> >>> Actually you better look at the scale upside-down. >>> I give it again below. >>> >>> At the scales top you come close to "static". The lower you go >>> along the scale the more solid it gets. >>> >>> You see we start from: >>> >>> Postulate, >>> Individual Consideration, >>> Consideration, >>> Agreement, >>> Terminals, ... the different flavors (solidities) of Communication ... >>> >>> As soon as you get a grasp on the above you will realize that >>> it is somehow misleading or inaccurate - to say the least - to >>> suggest the possibility of "as-ising" a postulate. As well one could >>> then as-is a Thetan. A funny idea. Please do not worry, no Thetan is >>> in danger to be annihilated by another Thetan, or in the course of >>> processing through as-ising. That would make an interesting paradox. >>> Simply because no one who would have regained such an ability would >>> ever care about any Thetan or processing at all. >>> >>> As well a postulate will not produce any read on a meter. Except >>> this one here: "This meter's needle is going to move!" >>> Those PC's who are already in good shape would rather move the >>> whole universe around the needle's pivot point instead ;-) >>> >>> What makes the meter read is the effects which our postulates >>> create. In other words the postulate's manifestations in terms of >>> particles, movement, energies, masses (condensed energy), feelings, >>> emotions, images, charges, screens, symbols, ... you name it. >>> >>> One can place a postulate into a solid - e.g. a wall. You may >>> or may not be able to "as-is" that wall. The postulate still remains. >>> >>> Any postulate - consideration - thought (in that sequence) ever >>> brought forth by theta always was and always will be. >>> (Quiz-question: Which often used Bible-quotes says the same >>> in other words?) >>> >>> Why is it then, that we are that much concerned with postulates in >>> any clearing technique which deserves to be called such? >>> >>> What we have a problem with, is not the postulates itself but rather >>> that we can not make our postulates 'stick' - at least not in a >>> predictable and desirable manner. >>> >>> Through the eons we came down we had put much attention and cleverness >>> into the activity of building enormously complex postulate structures >>> with tons of lies, false ownerships (valences, co-creation), >>> complicated mechanisms of forgettingness, blackness, dub-ins, >>> automaticities, machinery of all kinds, aso. >>> >>> The sole purpose of processing is to reestablish some order in that >>> chaos. In order to entangle the postulate structures you have to >>> go about it in a logical manner. You put aside a lot of rubbish first >>> until you can see through the complex fabric. >>> >>> Why do we not just postulate ourself into a perfectly unaberated, >>> healthy, >>> able state? Presumably because we did not want it that way. Would be too >>> easy. No fun in the game. It would constitute the same paradox >>> which was already mentioned further above in this text. >>> >>> Therefore it does you no good if you use effort or be inpatient or >>> operate on false assumptions right form the beginning. False expectations >>> (e.g. Hidden Standards) will rather slow you down. Effort will only >>> add to the solidity of ones reactive mind. >>> >>> [CLEARING, 1 . a gradient process of finding places where attention is >>> fixed and >>> restoring the ability of the pc to place and remove attention under his >>> own >>> determinism. (HCOB 28 Feb 59) 2 . what is clearing but regaining >>> awareness >>> that one is himself, and regaining confidence. (HCOB 1 Feb 58)] >>> >>> (Emphasis on "gradient" in def.1) >>> >>> Confidence in what? >>> >>> In the only thing a Thetan can do :-) >>> >>> >>> Robin >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 2 >>> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2017 03:56:40 -0800 >>> From: The Resolution of Mind list <[email protected]> >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: [TROM1] Postulates (2) - (Re: TROM Digest, Vol 147) >>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>> >>> Robin >>> You said "As soon as you get a grasp on the above you will realize that >>> it is somehow misleading or inaccurate - to say the least - to >>> suggest the possibility of "as-ising" a postulate. As well one could >>> then as-is a Thetan. " >>> >>> What is the problem with as-using a postulate? If i made a postulate to >>> smoke cigarettes in the past and want to stop smoking now then the >>> correct way to do it is to examine, duplicate the original postulate and >>> as-is it at which point i will no longer smoke cigarettes. Isn't this >>> the way it works? >>> >>> Sincerely >>> Pete Mclaughlin >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On Jan 22, 2017, at 12:55 AM, The Resolution of Mind list >>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> As soon as you get a grasp on the above you will realize that >>>> it is somehow misleading or inaccurate - to say the least - to >>>> suggest the possibility of "as-ising" a postulate. As well one could >>>> then as-is a Thetan. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 3 >>> Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2017 21:18:04 -0500 >>> From: The Resolution of Mind list <[email protected]> >>> To: The Resolution of Mind list <[email protected]> >>> Subject: Re: [TROM1] Fwd: Vorb's Trom Diary at 250 hours: The raging >>> yawn - >>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> >>> Pete, >>> >>> I do not know. >>> >>> I have never smoked or did any drugs except for experimentation, and >>> found >>> it repulsive or depressing. >>> >>> Never had an addiction to alcohol either, actually do not like the >>> effects >>> of alcohol. >>> >>> David >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 2:01 AM, The Resolution of Mind list < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> ************* >>>> The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] >>>> ************ >>>> >>>> Hi David >>>> How do you change a postulate after you have made it? >>>> For instance if you decided to start smoking as a kid how would you go >>>> about changing your mind and not smoking from now on? >>>> >>>> Sincerely >>>> Pete McLaughlin >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On Jan 17, 2017, at 4:51 PM, The Resolution of Mind list < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> ************* >>>> The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] >>>> ************ >>>> >>>> Thanks for your reply, Pete. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I have been doing that on different issues for years, and I can't say I >>>> have had success. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 6:35 PM, The Resolution of Mind list < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> ************* >>>>> The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] >>>>> ************ >>>>> >>>>> Hi David >>>>> >>>>> Yes is am applying axiom 16. Any time i have an ache, pain or >>>>> mis-emotion i focus my attention on it and duplicate it, view it, see >>>>> it as >>>>> clearly as possible. >>>>> If it is a sore thumb i look at the sensations and try to visualize the >>>>> exact tissues in the thumb that are producing the pain sensation. I >>>>> look >>>>> for any incident in the past that is involved but usually there is >>>>> none so >>>>> i just focus on the painful sensation to make it as intense and the >>>>> source >>>>> of the pain as clear as possible. >>>>> Then I continue to focus on this sensation, pain , mis emotion whatever >>>>> and it will soon fade away. >>>>> >>>>> Then i carry on with what task i was doing. >>>>> >>>>> Muriel Chen's book is all about applying this method to a number of >>>>> situations. >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely >>>>> Pete McLaughlin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>> On Jan 15, 2017, at 5:14 PM, The Resolution of Mind list < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> ************* >>>>> The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] >>>>> ************ >>>>> >>>>> Hi Pete, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for posting that. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Have you been able to make that axiom work? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If so how? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> And what were the results? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> David >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Jan 14, 2017 at 2:39 PM, The Resolution of Mind list < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> ************* >>>>>> The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] >>>>>> ************ >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi David >>>>>> The book "The Creation of Human Ability" contains a list of self >>>>>> evident truths derived from the "Logics and Axioms". >>>>>> >>>>>> Item 16 is >>>>>> >>>>>> 16. COMPLETE DESTRUCTION IS ACCOMPLISHED BY THE POSTULATION OF THE AS- >>>>>> IS- NESS OF ANY EXISTENCE AND THE PARTS THEREOF. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> So Hubbard did present a method to un-mock a postulate. >>>>>> >>>>>> The book is downloadable as a pdf here: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.matrixfiles.com/Scientology%20Materials/Books/195 >>>>>> 4%20CREATION%20OF%20HUMAN%20ABILITY.pdf >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely >>>>>> >>>>>> Pete McLaughlin >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> TROM mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> TROM mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> TROM mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> URL: >>> <http://lists.newciv.org/pipermail/trom/attachments/20170121 >>> /c522eb12/attachment-0001.html> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> TROM mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >>> >>> >>> End of TROM Digest, Vol 147, Issue 12 >>> ************************************* >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2017 10:32:59 -0800 >> From: The Resolution of Mind list <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [TROM1] Postulate (e.g.. to stop smoking) - Re: TROM >> Digest, Vol 147, Issue 12 >> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Hi Robin >> As you and Dennis and Hubbard say life consists of thetans and >> postulates. So why complicate changing my postulate "to smoke" with >> "different approaches"? >> >> From the Fundamentals of Thought (below) you see that the cycle of action >> is: >> Create >> Create-create-create >> Counter create >> >> And from the Scientology Glossary the definition of As-is gives us three >> ways to stop smoking >> >> Once i created the postulate to smoke i can stop smoking by As-ising the >> postulate to smoke >> Or i can postulate to not smoke which is a counter creation to the >> original postulate >> >> Or i can simply fail to continue smoking which is a no-create on the >> postulate. This could happen if i decided to smoke but a blight wiped out >> the tobacco plants so there where no more cigarettes. >> >> These are the only course of action possible to stop smoking. In fact i >> counter created by postulating that smoking was causing me to have soar >> throats so i HAD to stop or i would continue to have soar throats. >> >> So you see that changing my mind about anything i postulated in the past >> can be accomplished by these three methods. >> >> Sincerely >> Pete McLaughlin >> >> >> Scientology Glossary >> as-is: to view anything exactly as it is, without any distortions or >> lies, at which moment it vanishes and ceases to exist. See also as-isness. >> >> as-isness: the condition of immediate creation without persistence, and >> is the condition of existence which exists at the moment of creation and >> the moment of destruction, and is different from other considerations in >> that it does not contain survival. >> >> >> >> create: make, manufacture, construct, postulate, bring into beingness. >> >> create-counter-create: to create something against a creation; to create >> one thing and then create something else against it, bringing about the >> destruction of the first creation. >> >> create-create-create: create again continuously one moment after the >> next. This is survival. See also create. >> >> >> >> start-change-stop: the cycle of action in this universe, which is also >> the anatomy of control. Almost the entire subject of control is summed up >> in the ability to start, change and stop one?s activities, body and one?s >> environment. See also cycle of action. >> >> >> >> Fundamentals of Thought >> >> >> >> THE ACTUAL CYCLE OF ACTION THE ACTUAL CYCLE OF ACTION is as >> follows: CREATE, create-create-create, create-counter-create, no >> creation, nothingness. CREATE = make, manufacture, construct, >> postulate, bring into beingness = CREATE. Create-create-create = >> create again continuously one moment after the next = SURVIV AL. >> Create-counter-create = to create something against a creation = >> to create one thing and then create something else against it = >> DESTROY. No creation = an absence of any creation = no creative >> activity. AN ACTUAL cycle of action then consists of various >> activities but each and every one of them is creative. The cycle >> of action contains an APPARENCY of SURVIVAL but this is actually >> only a continuous creation. The APPARENT cycle of action contains >> DESTRUCTION but the ACTUAL cycle of action tells us what destruction >> is. DESTRUCTION is one of TWO activities. >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Jan 22, 2017, at 7:09 AM, The Resolution of Mind list < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> ************* >>> The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] >>> ************ >>> Hi Pete, >>> >>> when you stopped smoking, was it essential for you to go back >>> to the moment where you decided to start smoking? >>> >>> Different approaches to this kind of problems are possible >>> and whatever helped you to get rid of an unwanted habit is fine. >>> In that respect there is no right or wrong way. >>> >>> You could have made as well a new postulate in PT which overrules >>> the old one. People often do that when a new year starts. They say: >>> "From now on I quit smoking." It does not work for all because >>> they can not make this postulate "stick". But often enough it does. >>> >>> The example is on a relative low gradient. You have been most likely >>> well aware when you smoked your first cigarette, no trauma involved. >>> >>> But the real severe aberrations are not so easily handled. You have >>> to dig out the postulate(s) first. >>> >>> Dennis on L5 does not care about specific postulates. He uses a kind >>> of abstraction. He lets you put up the most general package's (to know) >>> postulates on both sides and then you see what pops up. You do not >>> timebreake the postulate but the incidents, persons, feelings and so on. >>> >>> The point is, that a postulate does not belong to the same category >>> as e.g. a mass, a charge, facsimiles, aso. >>> >>> A PC who does not make a differentiation between those things might >>> think that he must "run" a postulate in order to "erase" it. >>> Certainly we can let him find out the hard way. But is it not >>> better to get a good grasp on the terms we use? >>> >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Robin >>> >>> >>> ---- >>> >>> >>> On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 13:00:02 +0100, <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Send TROM mailing list submissions to >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>>> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>>> than "Re: Contents of TROM digest..." >>>> >>>> >>>> Today's Topics: >>>> >>>> 1. Postulates (2) - (Re: TROM Digest, Vol 147) >>>> (The Resolution of Mind list) >>>> 2. Re: Postulates (2) - (Re: TROM Digest, Vol 147) >>>> (The Resolution of Mind list) >>>> 3. Re: Fwd: Vorb's Trom Diary at 250 hours: The raging yawn - >>>> (The Resolution of Mind list) >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Message: 1 >>>> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2017 09:55:07 +0100 >>>> From: The Resolution of Mind list <[email protected]> >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Subject: [TROM1] Postulates (2) - (Re: TROM Digest, Vol 147) >>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes >>>> >>>> <snip> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I have been doing that on different issues for years, and I can't say >>>>>> I have had success. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> David >>>>>> >>>>>> <snip> >>>> >>>> >>>> David, Pete, anyone concerned, >>>> >>>> most of the misunderstandings and questions about postulates do easily >>>> resolve when you just look thoroughly at a couple of definitions. >>>> Below you find the most important ones regarding the subject of >>>> postulates, already brought into meaningful sequence: >>>> >>>> [POSTULATE, n. 1. a self-created truth would be simply the consideration >>>> generated by self. Well, we just borrow the word which is in seldom use >>>> in >>>> the >>>> English language, we call that postulate. And we mean by postulate, >>>> selfcreated >>>> truth. He posts something. He puts something up and that?s what a >>>> postulate is. (HPC A6-4, 5608C--) 2. a postulate is, of course, that >>>> thing >>>> which is a directed desire or order, or inhibition, or enforcement, on >>>> the >>>> part >>>> of the individual in the form of an idea. (2ACC 23A, 5312CM14) 3 . that >>>> self determined thought which starts, stops or changes past, present or >>>> future >>>> efforts. >>>> (APIA, p. 33) 4 . is actually a prediction. (5112CM30B)?v. 1 . in Scn >>>> the >>>> word >>>> postulate means to cause a thinkingness or consideration. It is a >>>> specially >>>> applied word and is defined as causative thinkingness. (FOT, p. 71) 2 . >>>> to >>>> conclude, decide or resolve a problem or to set a pattern for the future >>>> or to >>>> nullify a pattern of the past. (HFP, p. 155) 3 . to generate or ?think? >>>> a >>>> concept. A postulate infers conditions and actions rather than just >>>> plain >>>> thinks. It has a dynamic connotation. (SH Spec 84, 6612C13)] >>>> >>>> >>>> There are a couple of flavors of postulates: >>>> >>>> [OPPOSITE POSTULATE, an individual who has made a postulate on a subject >>>> experiences "failure" when he has to make an opposite postulate later. >>>> The >>>> opposite postulate has the effect of a negative postulate. The opposite >>>> postulate is distinguished from a negative postulate because it depends >>>> upon >>>> effort which a negative postulate does not necessarily have to do. >>>> (AP&A, >>>> P. >>>> 34)] >>>> >>>> >>>> (The above may be of special interest for those people who are concerned >>>> with TROM.) >>>> >>>> [NEGATIVE POSTULATE, the postulate not to be. It cancels past postulates >>>> and it also cancels, in greater or lesser degree, the entire individual. >>>> (AP&A, >>>> p. 34)] >>>> >>>> [PAST POSTULATES, decisions or conclusions the preclear has made in the >>>> past >>>> and to which he is still subjected in the present. Past postulates are >>>> uniformly >>>> invalid since they cannot resolve present environment. (NFP Gloss)] >>>> >>>> >>>> This is not a definition per se, but an applicable notion: >>>> >>>> "The universe consists of life and postulates" - DHS >>>> >>>> Now, we are legitimate to substitute "life" with "theta". >>>> They are not precisely synonymous but never the less we can get >>>> some sense out of: "The Universe consists of Theta and postulates." >>>> >>>> Actually it answers a question, you David, recently posed. >>>> It was the question regarding what a Thetan can do, what his >>>> abilities are. >>>> >>>> The list of a Thetan's abilities is rather short. It contains >>>> one item only: >>>> >>>> A Thetan postulates >>>> >>>> Well, does not look too impressive. But look again. This single >>>> item covers it all. >>>> >>>> Now see the Scale Of Reality: >>>> >>>> [SCALE OF REALITY, 1. the reality scale refers to the individual?s hold >>>> on >>>> reality and his agreement with others on what reality is. (NOTL, p. >>>> 103) 2 >>>> . at >>>> the bottom there is nothing, above that there is a communication line, >>>> the >>>> line >>>> becomes more solid, then above that terminals begin to materialize >>>> lightly >>>> and >>>> the line becomes less solid, then above that you have the terminals and >>>> you >>>> don?t have any lines, and above that the terminals are there mostly by >>>> agreement, above that there is agreement, and above agreement there is >>>> consideration, individual consideration, and above that there is >>>> postulate. >>>> That is the Scale of Reality. (PAB 154)] >>>> >>>> >>>> Actually you better look at the scale upside-down. >>>> I give it again below. >>>> >>>> At the scales top you come close to "static". The lower you go >>>> along the scale the more solid it gets. >>>> >>>> You see we start from: >>>> >>>> Postulate, >>>> Individual Consideration, >>>> Consideration, >>>> Agreement, >>>> Terminals, ... the different flavors (solidities) of Communication ... >>>> >>>> As soon as you get a grasp on the above you will realize that >>>> it is somehow misleading or inaccurate - to say the least - to >>>> suggest the possibility of "as-ising" a postulate. As well one could >>>> then as-is a Thetan. A funny idea. Please do not worry, no Thetan is >>>> in danger to be annihilated by another Thetan, or in the course of >>>> processing through as-ising. That would make an interesting paradox. >>>> Simply because no one who would have regained such an ability would >>>> ever care about any Thetan or processing at all. >>>> >>>> As well a postulate will not produce any read on a meter. Except >>>> this one here: "This meter's needle is going to move!" >>>> Those PC's who are already in good shape would rather move the >>>> whole universe around the needle's pivot point instead ;-) >>>> >>>> What makes the meter read is the effects which our postulates >>>> create. In other words the postulate's manifestations in terms of >>>> particles, movement, energies, masses (condensed energy), feelings, >>>> emotions, images, charges, screens, symbols, ... you name it. >>>> >>>> One can place a postulate into a solid - e.g. a wall. You may >>>> or may not be able to "as-is" that wall. The postulate still remains. >>>> >>>> Any postulate - consideration - thought (in that sequence) ever >>>> brought forth by theta always was and always will be. >>>> (Quiz-question: Which often used Bible-quotes says the same >>>> in other words?) >>>> >>>> Why is it then, that we are that much concerned with postulates in >>>> any clearing technique which deserves to be called such? >>>> >>>> What we have a problem with, is not the postulates itself but rather >>>> that we can not make our postulates 'stick' - at least not in a >>>> predictable and desirable manner. >>>> >>>> Through the eons we came down we had put much attention and cleverness >>>> into the activity of building enormously complex postulate structures >>>> with tons of lies, false ownerships (valences, co-creation), >>>> complicated mechanisms of forgettingness, blackness, dub-ins, >>>> automaticities, machinery of all kinds, aso. >>>> >>>> The sole purpose of processing is to reestablish some order in that >>>> chaos. In order to entangle the postulate structures you have to >>>> go about it in a logical manner. You put aside a lot of rubbish first >>>> until you can see through the complex fabric. >>>> >>>> Why do we not just postulate ourself into a perfectly unaberated, >>>> healthy, >>>> able state? Presumably because we did not want it that way. Would be too >>>> easy. No fun in the game. It would constitute the same paradox >>>> which was already mentioned further above in this text. >>>> >>>> Therefore it does you no good if you use effort or be inpatient or >>>> operate on false assumptions right form the beginning. False >>>> expectations >>>> (e.g. Hidden Standards) will rather slow you down. Effort will only >>>> add to the solidity of ones reactive mind. >>>> >>>> [CLEARING, 1 . a gradient process of finding places where attention is >>>> fixed and >>>> restoring the ability of the pc to place and remove attention under his >>>> own >>>> determinism. (HCOB 28 Feb 59) 2 . what is clearing but regaining >>>> awareness >>>> that one is himself, and regaining confidence. (HCOB 1 Feb 58)] >>>> >>>> (Emphasis on "gradient" in def.1) >>>> >>>> Confidence in what? >>>> >>>> In the only thing a Thetan can do :-) >>>> >>>> >>>> Robin >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 2 >>>> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2017 03:56:40 -0800 >>>> From: The Resolution of Mind list <[email protected]> >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Subject: Re: [TROM1] Postulates (2) - (Re: TROM Digest, Vol 147) >>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>>> >>>> Robin >>>> You said "As soon as you get a grasp on the above you will realize that >>>> it is somehow misleading or inaccurate - to say the least - to >>>> suggest the possibility of "as-ising" a postulate. As well one could >>>> then as-is a Thetan. " >>>> >>>> What is the problem with as-using a postulate? If i made a postulate to >>>> smoke cigarettes in the past and want to stop smoking now then the correct >>>> way to do it is to examine, duplicate the original postulate and as-is it >>>> at which point i will no longer smoke cigarettes. Isn't this the way it >>>> works? >>>> >>>> Sincerely >>>> Pete Mclaughlin >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On Jan 22, 2017, at 12:55 AM, The Resolution of Mind list < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> As soon as you get a grasp on the above you will realize that >>>>> it is somehow misleading or inaccurate - to say the least - to >>>>> suggest the possibility of "as-ising" a postulate. As well one could >>>>> then as-is a Thetan. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 3 >>>> Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2017 21:18:04 -0500 >>>> From: The Resolution of Mind list <[email protected]> >>>> To: The Resolution of Mind list <[email protected]> >>>> Subject: Re: [TROM1] Fwd: Vorb's Trom Diary at 250 hours: The raging >>>> yawn - >>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>>> >>>> Pete, >>>> >>>> I do not know. >>>> >>>> I have never smoked or did any drugs except for experimentation, and >>>> found >>>> it repulsive or depressing. >>>> >>>> Never had an addiction to alcohol either, actually do not like the >>>> effects >>>> of alcohol. >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 2:01 AM, The Resolution of Mind list < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> ************* >>>>> The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] >>>>> ************ >>>>> >>>>> Hi David >>>>> How do you change a postulate after you have made it? >>>>> For instance if you decided to start smoking as a kid how would you go >>>>> about changing your mind and not smoking from now on? >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely >>>>> Pete McLaughlin >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>> On Jan 17, 2017, at 4:51 PM, The Resolution of Mind list < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> ************* >>>>> The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] >>>>> ************ >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your reply, Pete. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I have been doing that on different issues for years, and I can't say >>>>> I >>>>> have had success. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> David >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 6:35 PM, The Resolution of Mind list < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> ************* >>>>>> The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] >>>>>> ************ >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi David >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes is am applying axiom 16. Any time i have an ache, pain or >>>>>> mis-emotion i focus my attention on it and duplicate it, view it, see >>>>>> it as >>>>>> clearly as possible. >>>>>> If it is a sore thumb i look at the sensations and try to visualize >>>>>> the >>>>>> exact tissues in the thumb that are producing the pain sensation. I >>>>>> look >>>>>> for any incident in the past that is involved but usually there is >>>>>> none so >>>>>> i just focus on the painful sensation to make it as intense and the >>>>>> source >>>>>> of the pain as clear as possible. >>>>>> Then I continue to focus on this sensation, pain , mis emotion >>>>>> whatever >>>>>> and it will soon fade away. >>>>>> >>>>>> Then i carry on with what task i was doing. >>>>>> >>>>>> Muriel Chen's book is all about applying this method to a number of >>>>>> situations. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely >>>>>> Pete McLaughlin >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jan 15, 2017, at 5:14 PM, The Resolution of Mind list < >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> ************* >>>>>> The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] >>>>>> ************ >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Pete, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you for posting that. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Have you been able to make that axiom work? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> If so how? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> And what were the results? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> David >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Jan 14, 2017 at 2:39 PM, The Resolution of Mind list < >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> ************* >>>>>>> The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] >>>>>>> ************ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi David >>>>>>> The book "The Creation of Human Ability" contains a list of self >>>>>>> evident truths derived from the "Logics and Axioms". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Item 16 is >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 16. COMPLETE DESTRUCTION IS ACCOMPLISHED BY THE POSTULATION OF THE >>>>>>> AS- >>>>>>> IS- NESS OF ANY EXISTENCE AND THE PARTS THEREOF. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So Hubbard did present a method to un-mock a postulate. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The book is downloadable as a pdf here: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.matrixfiles.com/Scientology%20Materials/Books/195 >>>>>>> 4%20CREATION%20OF%20HUMAN%20ABILITY.pdf >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sincerely >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pete McLaughlin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> TROM mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> TROM mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> TROM mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------------- next part -------------- >>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>> URL: <http://lists.newciv.org/pipermail/trom/attachments/20170121 >>>> /c522eb12/attachment-0001.html> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> TROM mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >>>> >>>> >>>> End of TROM Digest, Vol 147, Issue 12 >>>> ************************************* >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> TROM mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: <http://lists.newciv.org/pipermail/trom/attachments/20170122 >> /65cb59ff/attachment.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TROM mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >> >> >> End of TROM Digest, Vol 147, Issue 13 >> ************************************* >> > _______________________________________________ > TROM mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >
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