************* The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] ************
Pete,
For convenience and simplicity, I am going to address your post, by interspersing: Hi Robin Ok, we are getting to the meat of the issue. Are Scientology and TROM correct that this universe consists of only life and postulates. DP> Very good question. (See note at bottom.) If so then finding and as-ising the original postulate would instantly change anything. Why was your PC still stuttering? I would assume he had a number of postulates which included stuttering as a solution to life's difficulties and there was more work to do. DP> I would say your assumption is wrong, Pete. Stuttering would not be a solution to life's problems. It does not make sense. I would say the reason he is stuttering is because he is stuck in a traumatic incident. Someone overwhelmed him and implanted him with false and limiting data or action, (somehow interfered with his natural learning process) when he was trying to resolve a problem,............... or was in some other course of action. I am most interested in the answer as i am trying to become proficient at making changes in my life and helping other do so. In your experience with auditing have you found that there is some other work necessary to make life changes. I.e. If someone wants to give up smoking or loose 20 pounds or some such what is the most effective way or ways to go about it? D> That is the million dollar question. That is the fundamental question and purpose of all self improvement modalities. That is the fundamental purpose of dianetics, scn and TROM, etc... David Sincerely Pete Mclaughlin On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 7:32 AM, The Resolution of Mind list < [email protected]> wrote: > ************* > The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] > ************ > > Who wrote this? > > On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 1:47 AM, The Resolution of Mind list < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> ************* >> The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] >> ************ >> Hi Robin >> Ok, we are getting to the meat of the issue. >> Are Scientology and TROM correct that this universe consists of only life >> and postulates. If so then finding and as-ising the original postulate >> would instantly change anything. >> >> Why was your PC still stuttering? I would assume he had a number of >> postulates which included stuttering as a solution to life's difficulties >> and there was more work to do. >> >> I am most interested in the answer as i am trying to become proficient at >> making changes in my life and helping other do so. >> >> In your experience with auditing have you found that there is some other >> work necessary to make life changes. I.e. If someone wants to give up >> smoking or loose 20 pounds or some such what is the most effective way or >> ways to go about it? >> >> Sincerely >> Pete Mclaughlin >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> > On Jan 22, 2017, at 10:21 PM, The Resolution of Mind list < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > ************* >> > The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] >> > ************ >> > Hi Pete, >> > >> > ok, it seems I get your viewpoint. We have said more or less something >> > similar. What I call "different approach" you see as the "three possible >> > methods". >> > >> > My understanding of a postulate apparently differs in so far from yours >> > as I see a postulate as something separated from the effect which the >> > postulate creates. In our example this would be: Postulate = "to smoke". >> > The effect(s) are: I light a cigarette, produce smoke, get a sore >> throat, >> > my wife complains about the bad smell, it makes me calm, ... >> > In short we could sum up the effects into "smokingness" ;-). >> > >> >> create: make, manufacture, construct, postulate, bring into beingness. >> > >> > As far as I understand you, you associate very strong the postulating >> > with the effect. This seems to suggest itself; it seems practical >> because >> > the effect is so immediate when a postulate is made. >> > >> > It's great when it works so well for you. I sincerely wish it would work >> > as well for anyone else. >> > >> > I once audited someone on NED who stuttered. This PC regarded his >> stuttering >> > as a severe problem which he wanted to have resolved. We went back along >> > a chain of incidents and found a postulate. PC finally had F/N, VGI's, >> cognition. >> > The PC thanked me, the examiner was happy, case supervisor was happy, >> > Only I was slightly not so happy. The PC still stuttered. >> > >> > And why can David not make your proposed method work for him? >> > >> > Muriel Chen herself does not utter the word "postulate" a single time. >> > The book itself is excellent. Read it at first a couple years ago. >> > Reread it recently because you introduced it here. It's what it claims >> > to be - a first aid book. But beyond that? >> > >> > Best regards >> > >> > Robin >> > >> > >> > ----- >> > >> > >> >> On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 19:34:51 +0100, <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Send TROM mailing list submissions to >> >> [email protected] >> >> >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> >> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >> >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> >> [email protected] >> >> >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> >> [email protected] >> >> >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> >> than "Re: Contents of TROM digest..." >> >> >> >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> >> >> 1. Postulate (e.g.. to stop smoking) - Re: TROM Digest, Vol 147, >> >> Issue 12 (The Resolution of Mind list) >> >> 2. Re: Postulate (e.g.. to stop smoking) - Re: TROM Digest, Vol >> >> 147, Issue 12 (The Resolution of Mind list) >> >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> Message: 1 >> >> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2017 16:09:43 +0100 >> >> From: The Resolution of Mind list <[email protected]> >> >> To: [email protected] >> >> Subject: [TROM1] Postulate (e.g.. to stop smoking) - Re: TROM Digest, >> >> Vol 147, Issue 12 >> >> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed; >> >> delsp=yes >> >> >> >> Hi Pete, >> >> >> >> when you stopped smoking, was it essential for you to go back >> >> to the moment where you decided to start smoking? >> >> >> >> Different approaches to this kind of problems are possible >> >> and whatever helped you to get rid of an unwanted habit is fine. >> >> In that respect there is no right or wrong way. >> >> >> >> You could have made as well a new postulate in PT which overrules >> >> the old one. People often do that when a new year starts. They say: >> >> "From now on I quit smoking." It does not work for all because >> >> they can not make this postulate "stick". But often enough it does. >> >> >> >> The example is on a relative low gradient. You have been most likely >> >> well aware when you smoked your first cigarette, no trauma involved. >> >> >> >> But the real severe aberrations are not so easily handled. You have >> >> to dig out the postulate(s) first. >> >> >> >> Dennis on L5 does not care about specific postulates. He uses a kind >> >> of abstraction. He lets you put up the most general package's (to know) >> >> postulates on both sides and then you see what pops up. You do not >> >> timebreake the postulate but the incidents, persons, feelings and so >> on. >> >> >> >> The point is, that a postulate does not belong to the same category >> >> as e.g. a mass, a charge, facsimiles, aso. >> >> >> >> A PC who does not make a differentiation between those things might >> >> think that he must "run" a postulate in order to "erase" it. >> >> Certainly we can let him find out the hard way. But is it not >> >> better to get a good grasp on the terms we use? >> >> >> >> >> >> Regards >> >> >> >> Robin >> >> >> >> >> >> ---- >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 13:00:02 +0100, <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Send TROM mailing list submissions to >> >>> [email protected] >> >>> >> >>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> >>> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >> >>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> >>> [email protected] >> >>> >> >>> You can reach the person managing the list at >> >>> [email protected] >> >>> >> >>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> >>> than "Re: Contents of TROM digest..." >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Today's Topics: >> >>> >> >>> 1. Postulates (2) - (Re: TROM Digest, Vol 147) >> >>> (The Resolution of Mind list) >> >>> 2. Re: Postulates (2) - (Re: TROM Digest, Vol 147) >> >>> (The Resolution of Mind list) >> >>> 3. Re: Fwd: Vorb's Trom Diary at 250 hours: The raging yawn - >> >>> (The Resolution of Mind list) >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ---------- >> >>> >> >>> Message: 1 >> >>> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2017 09:55:07 +0100 >> >>> From: The Resolution of Mind list <[email protected]> >> >>> To: [email protected] >> >>> Subject: [TROM1] Postulates (2) - (Re: TROM Digest, Vol 147) >> >>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes >> >>> >> >>> <snip> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I have been doing that on different issues for years, and I can't >> say >> >>>>> I have had success. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> David >> >>>>> >> >>> <snip> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> David, Pete, anyone concerned, >> >>> >> >>> most of the misunderstandings and questions about postulates do easily >> >>> resolve when you just look thoroughly at a couple of definitions. >> >>> Below you find the most important ones regarding the subject of >> >>> postulates, already brought into meaningful sequence: >> >>> >> >>> [POSTULATE, n. 1. a self-created truth would be simply the >> consideration >> >>> generated by self. Well, we just borrow the word which is in seldom >> use >> >>> in >> >>> the >> >>> English language, we call that postulate. And we mean by postulate, >> >>> selfcreated >> >>> truth. He posts something. He puts something up and that?s what a >> >>> postulate is. (HPC A6-4, 5608C--) 2. a postulate is, of course, that >> >>> thing >> >>> which is a directed desire or order, or inhibition, or enforcement, on >> >>> the >> >>> part >> >>> of the individual in the form of an idea. (2ACC 23A, 5312CM14) 3 . >> that >> >>> self determined thought which starts, stops or changes past, present >> or >> >>> future >> >>> efforts. >> >>> (APIA, p. 33) 4 . is actually a prediction. (5112CM30B)?v. 1 . in Scn >> the >> >>> word >> >>> postulate means to cause a thinkingness or consideration. It is a >> >>> specially >> >>> applied word and is defined as causative thinkingness. (FOT, p. 71) 2 >> . >> >>> to >> >>> conclude, decide or resolve a problem or to set a pattern for the >> future >> >>> or to >> >>> nullify a pattern of the past. (HFP, p. 155) 3 . to generate or >> ?think? a >> >>> concept. A postulate infers conditions and actions rather than just >> plain >> >>> thinks. It has a dynamic connotation. (SH Spec 84, 6612C13)] >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> There are a couple of flavors of postulates: >> >>> >> >>> [OPPOSITE POSTULATE, an individual who has made a postulate on a >> subject >> >>> experiences "failure" when he has to make an opposite postulate later. >> >>> The >> >>> opposite postulate has the effect of a negative postulate. The >> opposite >> >>> postulate is distinguished from a negative postulate because it >> depends >> >>> upon >> >>> effort which a negative postulate does not necessarily have to do. >> (AP&A, >> >>> P. >> >>> 34)] >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> (The above may be of special interest for those people who are >> concerned >> >>> with TROM.) >> >>> >> >>> [NEGATIVE POSTULATE, the postulate not to be. It cancels past >> postulates >> >>> and it also cancels, in greater or lesser degree, the entire >> individual. >> >>> (AP&A, >> >>> p. 34)] >> >>> >> >>> [PAST POSTULATES, decisions or conclusions the preclear has made in >> the >> >>> past >> >>> and to which he is still subjected in the present. Past postulates are >> >>> uniformly >> >>> invalid since they cannot resolve present environment. (NFP Gloss)] >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> This is not a definition per se, but an applicable notion: >> >>> >> >>> "The universe consists of life and postulates" - DHS >> >>> >> >>> Now, we are legitimate to substitute "life" with "theta". >> >>> They are not precisely synonymous but never the less we can get >> >>> some sense out of: "The Universe consists of Theta and postulates." >> >>> >> >>> Actually it answers a question, you David, recently posed. >> >>> It was the question regarding what a Thetan can do, what his >> >>> abilities are. >> >>> >> >>> The list of a Thetan's abilities is rather short. It contains >> >>> one item only: >> >>> >> >>> A Thetan postulates >> >>> >> >>> Well, does not look too impressive. But look again. This single >> >>> item covers it all. >> >>> >> >>> Now see the Scale Of Reality: >> >>> >> >>> [SCALE OF REALITY, 1. the reality scale refers to the individual?s >> hold >> >>> on >> >>> reality and his agreement with others on what reality is. (NOTL, p. >> 103) >> >>> 2 >> >>> . at >> >>> the bottom there is nothing, above that there is a communication line, >> >>> the >> >>> line >> >>> becomes more solid, then above that terminals begin to materialize >> >>> lightly >> >>> and >> >>> the line becomes less solid, then above that you have the terminals >> and >> >>> you >> >>> don?t have any lines, and above that the terminals are there mostly by >> >>> agreement, above that there is agreement, and above agreement there is >> >>> consideration, individual consideration, and above that there is >> >>> postulate. >> >>> That is the Scale of Reality. (PAB 154)] >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Actually you better look at the scale upside-down. >> >>> I give it again below. >> >>> >> >>> At the scales top you come close to "static". The lower you go >> >>> along the scale the more solid it gets. >> >>> >> >>> You see we start from: >> >>> >> >>> Postulate, >> >>> Individual Consideration, >> >>> Consideration, >> >>> Agreement, >> >>> Terminals, ... the different flavors (solidities) of Communication ... >> >>> >> >>> As soon as you get a grasp on the above you will realize that >> >>> it is somehow misleading or inaccurate - to say the least - to >> >>> suggest the possibility of "as-ising" a postulate. As well one could >> >>> then as-is a Thetan. A funny idea. Please do not worry, no Thetan is >> >>> in danger to be annihilated by another Thetan, or in the course of >> >>> processing through as-ising. That would make an interesting paradox. >> >>> Simply because no one who would have regained such an ability would >> >>> ever care about any Thetan or processing at all. >> >>> >> >>> As well a postulate will not produce any read on a meter. Except >> >>> this one here: "This meter's needle is going to move!" >> >>> Those PC's who are already in good shape would rather move the >> >>> whole universe around the needle's pivot point instead ;-) >> >>> >> >>> What makes the meter read is the effects which our postulates >> >>> create. In other words the postulate's manifestations in terms of >> >>> particles, movement, energies, masses (condensed energy), feelings, >> >>> emotions, images, charges, screens, symbols, ... you name it. >> >>> >> >>> One can place a postulate into a solid - e.g. a wall. You may >> >>> or may not be able to "as-is" that wall. The postulate still remains. >> >>> >> >>> Any postulate - consideration - thought (in that sequence) ever >> >>> brought forth by theta always was and always will be. >> >>> (Quiz-question: Which often used Bible-quotes says the same >> >>> in other words?) >> >>> >> >>> Why is it then, that we are that much concerned with postulates in >> >>> any clearing technique which deserves to be called such? >> >>> >> >>> What we have a problem with, is not the postulates itself but rather >> >>> that we can not make our postulates 'stick' - at least not in a >> >>> predictable and desirable manner. >> >>> >> >>> Through the eons we came down we had put much attention and cleverness >> >>> into the activity of building enormously complex postulate structures >> >>> with tons of lies, false ownerships (valences, co-creation), >> >>> complicated mechanisms of forgettingness, blackness, dub-ins, >> >>> automaticities, machinery of all kinds, aso. >> >>> >> >>> The sole purpose of processing is to reestablish some order in that >> >>> chaos. In order to entangle the postulate structures you have to >> >>> go about it in a logical manner. You put aside a lot of rubbish first >> >>> until you can see through the complex fabric. >> >>> >> >>> Why do we not just postulate ourself into a perfectly unaberated, >> >>> healthy, >> >>> able state? Presumably because we did not want it that way. Would be >> too >> >>> easy. No fun in the game. It would constitute the same paradox >> >>> which was already mentioned further above in this text. >> >>> >> >>> Therefore it does you no good if you use effort or be inpatient or >> >>> operate on false assumptions right form the beginning. False >> expectations >> >>> (e.g. Hidden Standards) will rather slow you down. Effort will only >> >>> add to the solidity of ones reactive mind. >> >>> >> >>> [CLEARING, 1 . a gradient process of finding places where attention is >> >>> fixed and >> >>> restoring the ability of the pc to place and remove attention under >> his >> >>> own >> >>> determinism. (HCOB 28 Feb 59) 2 . what is clearing but regaining >> >>> awareness >> >>> that one is himself, and regaining confidence. (HCOB 1 Feb 58)] >> >>> >> >>> (Emphasis on "gradient" in def.1) >> >>> >> >>> Confidence in what? >> >>> >> >>> In the only thing a Thetan can do :-) >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Robin >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> ------------------------------ >> >>> >> >>> Message: 2 >> >>> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2017 03:56:40 -0800 >> >>> From: The Resolution of Mind list <[email protected]> >> >>> To: [email protected] >> >>> Subject: Re: [TROM1] Postulates (2) - (Re: TROM Digest, Vol 147) >> >>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >>> >> >>> Robin >> >>> You said "As soon as you get a grasp on the above you will realize >> that >> >>> it is somehow misleading or inaccurate - to say the least - to >> >>> suggest the possibility of "as-ising" a postulate. As well one could >> >>> then as-is a Thetan. " >> >>> >> >>> What is the problem with as-using a postulate? If i made a postulate >> to >> >>> smoke cigarettes in the past and want to stop smoking now then the >> >>> correct way to do it is to examine, duplicate the original postulate >> and >> >>> as-is it at which point i will no longer smoke cigarettes. Isn't this >> >>> the way it works? >> >>> >> >>> Sincerely >> >>> Pete Mclaughlin >> >>> >> >>> Sent from my iPad >> >>> >> >>>> On Jan 22, 2017, at 12:55 AM, The Resolution of Mind list >> >>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> As soon as you get a grasp on the above you will realize that >> >>>> it is somehow misleading or inaccurate - to say the least - to >> >>>> suggest the possibility of "as-ising" a postulate. As well one could >> >>>> then as-is a Thetan. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> ------------------------------ >> >>> >> >>> Message: 3 >> >>> Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2017 21:18:04 -0500 >> >>> From: The Resolution of Mind list <[email protected]> >> >>> To: The Resolution of Mind list <[email protected]> >> >>> Subject: Re: [TROM1] Fwd: Vorb's Trom Diary at 250 hours: The raging >> >>> yawn - >> >>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >>> >> >>> Pete, >> >>> >> >>> I do not know. >> >>> >> >>> I have never smoked or did any drugs except for experimentation, and >> >>> found >> >>> it repulsive or depressing. >> >>> >> >>> Never had an addiction to alcohol either, actually do not like the >> >>> effects >> >>> of alcohol. >> >>> >> >>> David >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 2:01 AM, The Resolution of Mind list < >> >>> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> ************* >> >>>> The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] >> >>>> ************ >> >>>> >> >>>> Hi David >> >>>> How do you change a postulate after you have made it? >> >>>> For instance if you decided to start smoking as a kid how would you >> go >> >>>> about changing your mind and not smoking from now on? >> >>>> >> >>>> Sincerely >> >>>> Pete McLaughlin >> >>>> >> >>>> Sent from my iPad >> >>>> >> >>>> On Jan 17, 2017, at 4:51 PM, The Resolution of Mind list < >> >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> ************* >> >>>> The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] >> >>>> ************ >> >>>> >> >>>> Thanks for your reply, Pete. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> I have been doing that on different issues for years, and I can't >> say I >> >>>> have had success. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> David >> >>>> >> >>>> On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 6:35 PM, The Resolution of Mind list < >> >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>> ************* >> >>>>> The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] >> >>>>> ************ >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Hi David >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Yes is am applying axiom 16. Any time i have an ache, pain or >> >>>>> mis-emotion i focus my attention on it and duplicate it, view it, >> see >> >>>>> it as >> >>>>> clearly as possible. >> >>>>> If it is a sore thumb i look at the sensations and try to visualize >> the >> >>>>> exact tissues in the thumb that are producing the pain sensation. I >> >>>>> look >> >>>>> for any incident in the past that is involved but usually there is >> >>>>> none so >> >>>>> i just focus on the painful sensation to make it as intense and the >> >>>>> source >> >>>>> of the pain as clear as possible. >> >>>>> Then I continue to focus on this sensation, pain , mis emotion >> whatever >> >>>>> and it will soon fade away. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Then i carry on with what task i was doing. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Muriel Chen's book is all about applying this method to a number of >> >>>>> situations. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Sincerely >> >>>>> Pete McLaughlin >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On Jan 15, 2017, at 5:14 PM, The Resolution of Mind list < >> >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> ************* >> >>>>> The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] >> >>>>> ************ >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Hi Pete, >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Thank you for posting that. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Have you been able to make that axiom work? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> If so how? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> And what were the results? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> David >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On Sat, Jan 14, 2017 at 2:39 PM, The Resolution of Mind list < >> >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> ************* >> >>>>>> The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] >> >>>>>> ************ >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Hi David >> >>>>>> The book "The Creation of Human Ability" contains a list of self >> >>>>>> evident truths derived from the "Logics and Axioms". >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Item 16 is >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> 16. COMPLETE DESTRUCTION IS ACCOMPLISHED BY THE POSTULATION OF THE >> AS- >> >>>>>> IS- NESS OF ANY EXISTENCE AND THE PARTS THEREOF. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> So Hubbard did present a method to un-mock a postulate. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> The book is downloadable as a pdf here: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> http://www.matrixfiles.com/Scientology%20Materials/Books/195 >> >>>>>> 4%20CREATION%20OF%20HUMAN%20ABILITY.pdf >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Sincerely >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Pete McLaughlin >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> TROM mailing list >> >>>>> [email protected] >> >>>>> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> TROM mailing list >> >>>> [email protected] >> >>>> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> TROM mailing list >> >>>> [email protected] >> >>>> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> -------------- next part -------------- >> >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> >>> URL: >> >>> <http://lists.newciv.org/pipermail/trom/attachments/20170121 >> /c522eb12/attachment-0001.html> >> >>> >> >>> ------------------------------ >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> TROM mailing list >> >>> [email protected] >> >>> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> End of TROM Digest, Vol 147, Issue 12 >> >>> ************************************* >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> Message: 2 >> >> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2017 10:32:59 -0800 >> >> From: The Resolution of Mind list <[email protected]> >> >> To: [email protected] >> >> Subject: Re: [TROM1] Postulate (e.g.. to stop smoking) - Re: TROM >> >> Digest, Vol 147, Issue 12 >> >> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> >> >> Hi Robin >> >> As you and Dennis and Hubbard say life consists of thetans and >> postulates. So why complicate changing my postulate "to smoke" with >> "different approaches"? >> >> >> >> From the Fundamentals of Thought (below) you see that the cycle of >> action is: >> >> Create >> >> Create-create-create >> >> Counter create >> >> >> >> And from the Scientology Glossary the definition of As-is gives us >> three ways to stop smoking >> >> >> >> Once i created the postulate to smoke i can stop smoking by As-ising >> the postulate to smoke >> >> Or i can postulate to not smoke which is a counter creation to the >> original postulate >> >> >> >> Or i can simply fail to continue smoking which is a no-create on the >> postulate. This could happen if i decided to smoke but a blight wiped out >> the tobacco plants so there where no more cigarettes. >> >> >> >> These are the only course of action possible to stop smoking. In fact >> i counter created by postulating that smoking was causing me to have soar >> throats so i HAD to stop or i would continue to have soar throats. >> >> >> >> So you see that changing my mind about anything i postulated in the >> past can be accomplished by these three methods. >> >> >> >> Sincerely >> >> Pete McLaughlin >> >> >> >> >> >> Scientology Glossary >> >> as-is: to view anything exactly as it is, without any distortions or >> lies, at which moment it vanishes and ceases to exist. See also as-isness. >> >> >> >> as-isness: the condition of immediate creation without persistence, >> and is the condition of existence which exists at the moment of creation >> and the moment of destruction, and is different from other considerations >> in that it does not contain survival. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> create: make, manufacture, construct, postulate, bring into beingness. >> >> >> >> create-counter-create: to create something against a creation; to >> create one thing and then create something else against it, bringing about >> the destruction of the first creation. >> >> >> >> create-create-create: create again continuously one moment after the >> next. This is survival. See also create. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> start-change-stop: the cycle of action in this universe, which is also >> the anatomy of control. Almost the entire subject of control is summed up >> in the ability to start, change and stop one?s activities, body and one?s >> environment. See also cycle of action. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Fundamentals of Thought >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> THE ACTUAL CYCLE OF ACTION THE ACTUAL CYCLE OF ACTION is as >> follows: CREATE, create-create-create, create-counter-create, no >> creation, nothingness. CREATE = make, manufacture, construct, >> postulate, bring into beingness = CREATE. Create-create-create = >> create again continuously one moment after the next = SURVIV AL. >> Create-counter-create = to create something against a creation = >> to create one thing and then create something else against it = >> DESTROY. No creation = an absence of any creation = no creative >> activity. AN ACTUAL cycle of action then consists of various >> activities but each and every one of them is creative. The cycle >> of action contains an APPARENCY of SURVIVAL but this is actually >> only a continuous creation. The APPARENT cycle of action contains >> DESTRUCTION but the ACTUAL cycle of action tells us what destruction >> is. DESTRUCTION is one of TWO activities. >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> >> >>> On Jan 22, 2017, at 7:09 AM, The Resolution of Mind list < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> ************* >> >>> The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] >> >>> ************ >> >>> Hi Pete, >> >>> >> >>> when you stopped smoking, was it essential for you to go back >> >>> to the moment where you decided to start smoking? >> >>> >> >>> Different approaches to this kind of problems are possible >> >>> and whatever helped you to get rid of an unwanted habit is fine. >> >>> In that respect there is no right or wrong way. >> >>> >> >>> You could have made as well a new postulate in PT which overrules >> >>> the old one. People often do that when a new year starts. They say: >> >>> "From now on I quit smoking." It does not work for all because >> >>> they can not make this postulate "stick". But often enough it does. >> >>> >> >>> The example is on a relative low gradient. You have been most likely >> >>> well aware when you smoked your first cigarette, no trauma involved. >> >>> >> >>> But the real severe aberrations are not so easily handled. You have >> >>> to dig out the postulate(s) first. >> >>> >> >>> Dennis on L5 does not care about specific postulates. He uses a kind >> >>> of abstraction. He lets you put up the most general package's (to >> know) >> >>> postulates on both sides and then you see what pops up. You do not >> >>> timebreake the postulate but the incidents, persons, feelings and so >> on. >> >>> >> >>> The point is, that a postulate does not belong to the same category >> >>> as e.g. a mass, a charge, facsimiles, aso. >> >>> >> >>> A PC who does not make a differentiation between those things might >> >>> think that he must "run" a postulate in order to "erase" it. >> >>> Certainly we can let him find out the hard way. But is it not >> >>> better to get a good grasp on the terms we use? >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Regards >> >>> >> >>> Robin >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> ---- >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 13:00:02 +0100, <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> Send TROM mailing list submissions to >> >>>> [email protected] >> >>>> >> >>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> >>>> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >> >>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> >>>> [email protected] >> >>>> >> >>>> You can reach the person managing the list at >> >>>> [email protected] >> >>>> >> >>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> >>>> than "Re: Contents of TROM digest..." >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Today's Topics: >> >>>> >> >>>> 1. Postulates (2) - (Re: TROM Digest, Vol 147) >> >>>> (The Resolution of Mind list) >> >>>> 2. Re: Postulates (2) - (Re: TROM Digest, Vol 147) >> >>>> (The Resolution of Mind list) >> >>>> 3. Re: Fwd: Vorb's Trom Diary at 250 hours: The raging yawn - >> >>>> (The Resolution of Mind list) >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ---------- >> >>>> >> >>>> Message: 1 >> >>>> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2017 09:55:07 +0100 >> >>>> From: The Resolution of Mind list <[email protected]> >> >>>> To: [email protected] >> >>>> Subject: [TROM1] Postulates (2) - (Re: TROM Digest, Vol 147) >> >>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes >> >>>> >> >>>> <snip> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I have been doing that on different issues for years, and I can't >> say >> >>>>>> I have had success. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> David >> >>>>>> >> >>>> <snip> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> David, Pete, anyone concerned, >> >>>> >> >>>> most of the misunderstandings and questions about postulates do >> easily >> >>>> resolve when you just look thoroughly at a couple of definitions. >> >>>> Below you find the most important ones regarding the subject of >> >>>> postulates, already brought into meaningful sequence: >> >>>> >> >>>> [POSTULATE, n. 1. a self-created truth would be simply the >> consideration >> >>>> generated by self. Well, we just borrow the word which is in seldom >> use in >> >>>> the >> >>>> English language, we call that postulate. And we mean by postulate, >> >>>> selfcreated >> >>>> truth. He posts something. He puts something up and that?s what a >> >>>> postulate is. (HPC A6-4, 5608C--) 2. a postulate is, of course, that >> thing >> >>>> which is a directed desire or order, or inhibition, or enforcement, >> on the >> >>>> part >> >>>> of the individual in the form of an idea. (2ACC 23A, 5312CM14) 3 . >> that >> >>>> self determined thought which starts, stops or changes past, present >> or >> >>>> future >> >>>> efforts. >> >>>> (APIA, p. 33) 4 . is actually a prediction. (5112CM30B)?v. 1 . in >> Scn the >> >>>> word >> >>>> postulate means to cause a thinkingness or consideration. It is a >> specially >> >>>> applied word and is defined as causative thinkingness. (FOT, p. 71) >> 2 . to >> >>>> conclude, decide or resolve a problem or to set a pattern for the >> future >> >>>> or to >> >>>> nullify a pattern of the past. (HFP, p. 155) 3 . to generate or >> ?think? a >> >>>> concept. A postulate infers conditions and actions rather than just >> plain >> >>>> thinks. It has a dynamic connotation. (SH Spec 84, 6612C13)] >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> There are a couple of flavors of postulates: >> >>>> >> >>>> [OPPOSITE POSTULATE, an individual who has made a postulate on a >> subject >> >>>> experiences "failure" when he has to make an opposite postulate >> later. The >> >>>> opposite postulate has the effect of a negative postulate. The >> opposite >> >>>> postulate is distinguished from a negative postulate because it >> depends >> >>>> upon >> >>>> effort which a negative postulate does not necessarily have to do. >> (AP&A, >> >>>> P. >> >>>> 34)] >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> (The above may be of special interest for those people who are >> concerned >> >>>> with TROM.) >> >>>> >> >>>> [NEGATIVE POSTULATE, the postulate not to be. It cancels past >> postulates >> >>>> and it also cancels, in greater or lesser degree, the entire >> individual. >> >>>> (AP&A, >> >>>> p. 34)] >> >>>> >> >>>> [PAST POSTULATES, decisions or conclusions the preclear has made in >> the >> >>>> past >> >>>> and to which he is still subjected in the present. Past postulates >> are >> >>>> uniformly >> >>>> invalid since they cannot resolve present environment. (NFP Gloss)] >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> This is not a definition per se, but an applicable notion: >> >>>> >> >>>> "The universe consists of life and postulates" - DHS >> >>>> >> >>>> Now, we are legitimate to substitute "life" with "theta". >> >>>> They are not precisely synonymous but never the less we can get >> >>>> some sense out of: "The Universe consists of Theta and postulates." >> >>>> >> >>>> Actually it answers a question, you David, recently posed. >> >>>> It was the question regarding what a Thetan can do, what his >> >>>> abilities are. >> >>>> >> >>>> The list of a Thetan's abilities is rather short. It contains >> >>>> one item only: >> >>>> >> >>>> A Thetan postulates >> >>>> >> >>>> Well, does not look too impressive. But look again. This single >> >>>> item covers it all. >> >>>> >> >>>> Now see the Scale Of Reality: >> >>>> >> >>>> [SCALE OF REALITY, 1. the reality scale refers to the individual?s >> hold on >> >>>> reality and his agreement with others on what reality is. (NOTL, p. >> 103) 2 >> >>>> . at >> >>>> the bottom there is nothing, above that there is a communication >> line, the >> >>>> line >> >>>> becomes more solid, then above that terminals begin to materialize >> lightly >> >>>> and >> >>>> the line becomes less solid, then above that you have the terminals >> and you >> >>>> don?t have any lines, and above that the terminals are there mostly >> by >> >>>> agreement, above that there is agreement, and above agreement there >> is >> >>>> consideration, individual consideration, and above that there is >> postulate. >> >>>> That is the Scale of Reality. (PAB 154)] >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Actually you better look at the scale upside-down. >> >>>> I give it again below. >> >>>> >> >>>> At the scales top you come close to "static". The lower you go >> >>>> along the scale the more solid it gets. >> >>>> >> >>>> You see we start from: >> >>>> >> >>>> Postulate, >> >>>> Individual Consideration, >> >>>> Consideration, >> >>>> Agreement, >> >>>> Terminals, ... the different flavors (solidities) of Communication >> ... >> >>>> >> >>>> As soon as you get a grasp on the above you will realize that >> >>>> it is somehow misleading or inaccurate - to say the least - to >> >>>> suggest the possibility of "as-ising" a postulate. As well one could >> >>>> then as-is a Thetan. A funny idea. Please do not worry, no Thetan is >> >>>> in danger to be annihilated by another Thetan, or in the course of >> >>>> processing through as-ising. That would make an interesting paradox. >> >>>> Simply because no one who would have regained such an ability would >> >>>> ever care about any Thetan or processing at all. >> >>>> >> >>>> As well a postulate will not produce any read on a meter. Except >> >>>> this one here: "This meter's needle is going to move!" >> >>>> Those PC's who are already in good shape would rather move the >> >>>> whole universe around the needle's pivot point instead ;-) >> >>>> >> >>>> What makes the meter read is the effects which our postulates >> >>>> create. In other words the postulate's manifestations in terms of >> >>>> particles, movement, energies, masses (condensed energy), feelings, >> >>>> emotions, images, charges, screens, symbols, ... you name it. >> >>>> >> >>>> One can place a postulate into a solid - e.g. a wall. You may >> >>>> or may not be able to "as-is" that wall. The postulate still remains. >> >>>> >> >>>> Any postulate - consideration - thought (in that sequence) ever >> >>>> brought forth by theta always was and always will be. >> >>>> (Quiz-question: Which often used Bible-quotes says the same >> >>>> in other words?) >> >>>> >> >>>> Why is it then, that we are that much concerned with postulates in >> >>>> any clearing technique which deserves to be called such? >> >>>> >> >>>> What we have a problem with, is not the postulates itself but rather >> >>>> that we can not make our postulates 'stick' - at least not in a >> >>>> predictable and desirable manner. >> >>>> >> >>>> Through the eons we came down we had put much attention and >> cleverness >> >>>> into the activity of building enormously complex postulate structures >> >>>> with tons of lies, false ownerships (valences, co-creation), >> >>>> complicated mechanisms of forgettingness, blackness, dub-ins, >> >>>> automaticities, machinery of all kinds, aso. >> >>>> >> >>>> The sole purpose of processing is to reestablish some order in that >> >>>> chaos. In order to entangle the postulate structures you have to >> >>>> go about it in a logical manner. You put aside a lot of rubbish first >> >>>> until you can see through the complex fabric. >> >>>> >> >>>> Why do we not just postulate ourself into a perfectly unaberated, >> healthy, >> >>>> able state? Presumably because we did not want it that way. Would be >> too >> >>>> easy. No fun in the game. It would constitute the same paradox >> >>>> which was already mentioned further above in this text. >> >>>> >> >>>> Therefore it does you no good if you use effort or be inpatient or >> >>>> operate on false assumptions right form the beginning. False >> expectations >> >>>> (e.g. Hidden Standards) will rather slow you down. Effort will only >> >>>> add to the solidity of ones reactive mind. >> >>>> >> >>>> [CLEARING, 1 . a gradient process of finding places where attention >> is >> >>>> fixed and >> >>>> restoring the ability of the pc to place and remove attention under >> his own >> >>>> determinism. (HCOB 28 Feb 59) 2 . what is clearing but regaining >> awareness >> >>>> that one is himself, and regaining confidence. (HCOB 1 Feb 58)] >> >>>> >> >>>> (Emphasis on "gradient" in def.1) >> >>>> >> >>>> Confidence in what? >> >>>> >> >>>> In the only thing a Thetan can do :-) >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Robin >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> ------------------------------ >> >>>> >> >>>> Message: 2 >> >>>> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2017 03:56:40 -0800 >> >>>> From: The Resolution of Mind list <[email protected]> >> >>>> To: [email protected] >> >>>> Subject: Re: [TROM1] Postulates (2) - (Re: TROM Digest, Vol 147) >> >>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >>>> >> >>>> Robin >> >>>> You said "As soon as you get a grasp on the above you will realize >> that >> >>>> it is somehow misleading or inaccurate - to say the least - to >> >>>> suggest the possibility of "as-ising" a postulate. As well one could >> >>>> then as-is a Thetan. " >> >>>> >> >>>> What is the problem with as-using a postulate? If i made a postulate >> to smoke cigarettes in the past and want to stop smoking now then the >> correct way to do it is to examine, duplicate the original postulate and >> as-is it at which point i will no longer smoke cigarettes. Isn't this the >> way it works? >> >>>> >> >>>> Sincerely >> >>>> Pete Mclaughlin >> >>>> >> >>>> Sent from my iPad >> >>>> >> >>>>> On Jan 22, 2017, at 12:55 AM, The Resolution of Mind list < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> As soon as you get a grasp on the above you will realize that >> >>>>> it is somehow misleading or inaccurate - to say the least - to >> >>>>> suggest the possibility of "as-ising" a postulate. As well one could >> >>>>> then as-is a Thetan. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> ------------------------------ >> >>>> >> >>>> Message: 3 >> >>>> Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2017 21:18:04 -0500 >> >>>> From: The Resolution of Mind list <[email protected]> >> >>>> To: The Resolution of Mind list <[email protected]> >> >>>> Subject: Re: [TROM1] Fwd: Vorb's Trom Diary at 250 hours: The raging >> >>>> yawn - >> >>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >>>> >> >>>> Pete, >> >>>> >> >>>> I do not know. >> >>>> >> >>>> I have never smoked or did any drugs except for experimentation, and >> found >> >>>> it repulsive or depressing. >> >>>> >> >>>> Never had an addiction to alcohol either, actually do not like the >> effects >> >>>> of alcohol. >> >>>> >> >>>> David >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 2:01 AM, The Resolution of Mind list < >> >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>> ************* >> >>>>> The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] >> >>>>> ************ >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Hi David >> >>>>> How do you change a postulate after you have made it? >> >>>>> For instance if you decided to start smoking as a kid how would you >> go >> >>>>> about changing your mind and not smoking from now on? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Sincerely >> >>>>> Pete McLaughlin >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On Jan 17, 2017, at 4:51 PM, The Resolution of Mind list < >> >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> ************* >> >>>>> The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] >> >>>>> ************ >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Thanks for your reply, Pete. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I have been doing that on different issues for years, and I can't >> say I >> >>>>> have had success. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> David >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 6:35 PM, The Resolution of Mind list < >> >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> ************* >> >>>>>> The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] >> >>>>>> ************ >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Hi David >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Yes is am applying axiom 16. Any time i have an ache, pain or >> >>>>>> mis-emotion i focus my attention on it and duplicate it, view it, >> see it as >> >>>>>> clearly as possible. >> >>>>>> If it is a sore thumb i look at the sensations and try to >> visualize the >> >>>>>> exact tissues in the thumb that are producing the pain sensation. >> I look >> >>>>>> for any incident in the past that is involved but usually there is >> none so >> >>>>>> i just focus on the painful sensation to make it as intense and >> the source >> >>>>>> of the pain as clear as possible. >> >>>>>> Then I continue to focus on this sensation, pain , mis emotion >> whatever >> >>>>>> and it will soon fade away. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Then i carry on with what task i was doing. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Muriel Chen's book is all about applying this method to a number of >> >>>>>> situations. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Sincerely >> >>>>>> Pete McLaughlin >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Sent from my iPad >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> On Jan 15, 2017, at 5:14 PM, The Resolution of Mind list < >> >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> ************* >> >>>>>> The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] >> >>>>>> ************ >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Hi Pete, >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Thank you for posting that. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Have you been able to make that axiom work? >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> If so how? >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> And what were the results? >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> David >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> On Sat, Jan 14, 2017 at 2:39 PM, The Resolution of Mind list < >> >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> ************* >> >>>>>>> The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] >> >>>>>>> ************ >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Hi David >> >>>>>>> The book "The Creation of Human Ability" contains a list of self >> >>>>>>> evident truths derived from the "Logics and Axioms". >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Item 16 is >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> 16. COMPLETE DESTRUCTION IS ACCOMPLISHED BY THE POSTULATION OF >> THE AS- >> >>>>>>> IS- NESS OF ANY EXISTENCE AND THE PARTS THEREOF. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> So Hubbard did present a method to un-mock a postulate. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> The book is downloadable as a pdf here: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> http://www.matrixfiles.com/Scientology%20Materials/Books/195 >> >>>>>>> 4%20CREATION%20OF%20HUMAN%20ABILITY.pdf >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Sincerely >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Pete McLaughlin >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> TROM mailing list >> >>>>>> [email protected] >> >>>>>> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> TROM mailing list >> >>>>> [email protected] >> >>>>> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> TROM mailing list >> >>>>> [email protected] >> >>>>> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- >> >>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> >>>> URL: <http://lists.newciv.org/pipermail/trom/attachments/20170121 >> /c522eb12/attachment-0001.html> >> >>>> >> >>>> ------------------------------ >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> TROM mailing list >> >>>> [email protected] >> >>>> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> End of TROM Digest, Vol 147, Issue 12 >> >>>> ************************************* >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> TROM mailing list >> >>> [email protected] >> >>> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> >> URL: <http://lists.newciv.org/pipermail/trom/attachments/20170122 >> /65cb59ff/attachment.html> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> TROM mailing list >> >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >> >> >> >> >> >> End of TROM Digest, Vol 147, Issue 13 >> >> ************************************* >> > _______________________________________________ >> > TROM mailing list >> > [email protected] >> > http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TROM mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >> > > > _______________________________________________ > TROM mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom > >
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