Blainer) I am not particularly interested in the time it would take to debate a single passage, such as John 3. I have to look at many passages to get at the overall meaning. I have read what you have written, and appreciate your slant on it, but it just seems incomplete without considering other verses in the Bible relating to baptism, logic itself, and passages from my own Mormon books. I am on my way to church right now, so see ya later!
On Fri, 9 Aug 2002 19:11:17 -0400 "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > David Miller wrote: > >> There is a gaping hole in your logic here. If children can go > >> right in, then the statement that you claim Jesus made, that > >> unless a man is born of water (baptism) and the Spirit he > >> cannot enter the kingdom of God, is false. > > Blainer wrote: > > As John indicated, and Jesus confirmed, HE (Jesus) had no need > > of Baptism. He was totally sinless. Children are equally > sinless, are > > they not? So, there is no problem with that logic, I would say. > They > > may enter without baptism, just as Jesus could have done if he > had not > > chosen to set the example for the rest of us--excluding > innocents--to > > follow. > > ... > > Baptism applies to all except to innocents--even the animals > > have no need for baptism. Baptism is for the remission of sins. > > Without sin, there is no need for baptism. > > You are jumping all over the place. Let's back up and consider the > statements of Jesus in John 3. I would love to explain more about > Baptism. > I have clear answers about all of this, but for the sake of > simplicity, lets > deal with one thing at a time. My original point concerned how your > interpretation of John 3 was wrong. Let's look at John 3 and then > your > statements above and see if we can agree that you need to modify > your > interpretation of John 3. > > John 3: > 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto > thee, Except > a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot SEE the kingdom of God. > 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? > can he > enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? > 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be > BORN OF > WATER AND OF THE SPIRIT, he cannot ENTER into the kingdom of God. > 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born > of the > Spirit is spirit. > 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. > > Jesus made a statement that a man cannot SEE the kingdom of God, > unless he > is born again. He also says, unless a man be born of water and of > the > Spirit, he cannot ENTER the kingdom of God. I would posit that > being born > of the Spirit refers to his phrase "born again" in the previous > verse. > Therefore, we can also say that unless a person is born of water and > of the > Spirit, he cannot see the Kingdom of God. A person cannot enter > what he > cannot see, so unless he is born from above, born of the Spirit, he > will not > be able to see God's kingdom, nor can he enter God's kingdom. Are > we agreed > up to this point? > > Now your interpretation is that Jesus meant baptism when he said > "born of > water." My understanding is that Jesus meant being born of the > flesh when > he mentioned water. This is why he reiterates "that which is born > of flesh > is flesh, and that which is born of Spirit is spirit." It is not > enough to > be born of water, you must also be born of the Spirit to enter the > Kingdom > of God. There is water and there is spirit; there is flesh and > there is > spirit. Man must be born again, born from above, born of the > Spirit, in > order to see the Kingdom of God, and in order to enter the Kingdom > of God. > > Regardless of how we interpret this word "water" differently, the > passage > very clearly indicates that unless a person is born of the water and > of the > Spirit, he cannot see the Kingdom of God, nor can he enter the > Kingdom of > God. > > Let's now consider the logic of your statement that innocent people > do not > need to be baptized to enter the Kingdom of God. You argue that > children > are innocent, and Jesus is innocent; therefore, neither Jesus nor > children > need to be baptized in order to enter the kingdom of God. Such a > statement > directly contradicts the statement of Jesus if you interpret "water" > to mean > "baptism." According to your interpretation, Jesus said that unless > a > person (Greek=anthropos=any human being, male or female) is > baptized, he > cannot enter the kingdom of God. Yet you say, many can enter the > kingdom of > God without baptism if they are innocent. These two statements > contradict > each other. Your earlier statement was that baptism is necessary > for > salvation, but now you say that children do not need baptism for > salvation. > If children do not need baptism for salvation, then your previous > statement > is false. Baptism is not necessary for salvation. > > My position is that children need to be born of the Spirit in order > to see > and enter the kingdom of God. I was born of the Spirit when I was 5 > years > old. Prior to being born of the Spirit, I could not see the Kingdom > of God. > I did not have a clue about it. I could not enter the Kingdom of > God, as a > child, until I was born from above (born of the Spirit). Therefore, > I stand > by Jesus statement that unless a person is born of the water and of > the > Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. > > Peace be with you. > David Miller. > > ---------- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you > may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you > have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
