From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Judy wrote: > The scriptures actually teach baptism is a sign > confirming the spiritual work of grace that has > been done already in the person's heart.
dm: Would you care to share what passage you have in mind? Scripture teaches no such thing. This doctrine is classic Protestant doctrine, a doctrine of men. You won't find the Scriptures teaching it as far as I know, but it is repeated so often that people assume that it is in the Bible. jt: It IS in the Bible David, I don't have to assume it or be led about by any doctrine of demons or men; because the scriptures do not contradict themselves. dm: It's kind of like that phrase, "God helps those who help themselves." So many people think this is a verse in the Bible but it is not. jt: That exact phrase may not be in the Bible but the principle is there. If we are not willing to give up certain attitudes of sin then God can do nothing for us because we tie his hands. Self pity is "huge" and this spirit will keep ppl in bondage if they choose to entertain it. It is OUR choice. dm: I'm not aware of any Bible verse that says baptism is a sign confirming the spiritual work of grace that has already taken place in the person's heart. jt: Once more there may not be a particular Bible verse that gives this phrase exactly but it is there nevertheless and this is the example we see in the book of Acts. See Acts 8:37 where Philip ministers to a eunuch who is trying to understand scripture, (and this is the model): The eunuch says "See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? and Philip says "If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said 'I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God' .... so faith must be there first. dm: The Scriptures teach that baptism saves us. That's hard for most Protestants to swallow, but that is what the Scriptures teach. What we need to do is understand what the Bible means by this teaching, not deny that the Bible teaches it. jt: The Bible does not teach this, the rcc teaches it because in this way THEY can control who is and who is is not saved. Salvation is either by baptism or by faith through grace - it can not be both. Eph 2:8 says "For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God not of works lest any man should boast." This was the whole point of the Reformation. dm: .. even BAPTISM DOTH ALSO NOW SAVE US (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (1 Peter 3:21 KJV) jt: The above is preceded by "The like figure whereunto..." which you left off and this is imagery. Ephesians 5:26 says "that he might sanctify and cleanse it (the Church) by the washing of water by the Word" so 1 Peter 3:21 should be understood in this context, that is, without a good conscience toward God which is by faith which comes by hearing God's Word, all baptism will do is wash away the filth of the flesh. Another example from scripture is Acts 10:47,48 at the house of Cornelius (a gentile). God poured out the Holy Spirit on these gentiles and after Peter heard them speak with tongues and magnify God he said: "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?" and he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Wouldn't you think that if baptism in and of itself would have saved these ppl Philip and Peter would have baptized them first in both instances? Grace and Peace Judy ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
