From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> David Miller wrote: I'm not aware of any Bible verse that says baptism is a sign confirming the spiritual work of grace that has already taken place in the person's heart.
jt: Possibly I should have pointed out that we do not get born again by water baptism but by the power of the Holy Spirit working in conjunction with God's Word. I don't know if you have ever debated Roman Catholics - I have and by it learned how important this distinction is. The RCC teaches ppl they are saved by the ritual of baptism and they receive the Holy Spirit at their first communion Neither is so. DavidM: I see something much different in the book of Acts. Perhaps together we should discuss every passage in the book of Acts that has to do with water baptism. Judy wrote: See Acts 8:37 where Philip ministers to a eunuch who is trying to understand scripture, (and this is the model): The eunuch says "See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? and Philip says "If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said 'I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God' .... so faith must be there first. DavidM: Right, baptism must be entered into by faith or it is just taking a bath. But this passage teaches nothing like what you taught about water baptism being a symbol of something that has already taken place in the heart. jt: To me it does - it is after the eunuch's confession of Christ that they went into the water. Claiming that baptism saves puts the cart before the horse. David: The passage in Peter speaks about the answer of a good conscience toward God taking place in water baptism. jt: Scripture teaches that it is the blood of Jesus that cleanses the conscience from dead works so that we may serve the living God Hebrews 9:14. David Miller wrote: The Scriptures teach that baptism saves us. ... What we need to do is understand what the Bible means by this teaching, not deny that the Bible teaches it. Judy wrote: The Bible does not teach this. If this is a clear doctrine of scripture then you should be able to prove it by two or more witnesses David, are you able to do that? DavidM: 1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even BAPTISM DOTH ALSO NOW SAVE US (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: jt: The answer of a good conscience by the resurrection is because of the blood of Jesus Christ, not the water of Baptism. Judy wrote: the rcc teaches it because in this way THEY can control who is and who is is not saved. Salvation is either by baptism or by faith through grace - it cannot be both. DavidM: Baptism is simply a vehicle whereby one expresses faith in Christ. Your allegation that it cannot be both doesn't make any sense. <snip> jt: What I am saying is that baptism represents our putting off the old man of sin, it is a picture of our identification with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, but faith must be there first or it is only dead ritual/religious works. DavidM: You are confusing the matter. The "figure" of baptism is how Noah and his family were saved by water. There is a type and antitype here. jt: I understand that 8 ppl were saved from God's wrath by water, that is Noah and his family... and we are saved from God's wrath by our identification with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. But faith is a prerequisite for both. Noah is included in Hebrews 11 with the heroes of faith isn't he? DavidM: No doubt we agree that baptism without faith is just washing away the filth of the flesh. However, baptism done in faith washes away sins. Do not deny the Scriptures because of the popular teachings of men. The Scriptures teach that baptism saves us (1 Peter 3:21). jt: The scriptures say this in one place but baptism independent or aside from faith will not save us. Judy wrote: Another example from scripture is Acts 10:47,48 at the house of Cornelius (a gentile). God poured out the Holy Spirit on these gentiles and after Peter heard them speak with tongues and magnify God he said: "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?" and he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Wouldn't you think that if baptism in and of itself would have saved these ppl Philip and Peter would have baptized them first in both instances? DavidM: Philip? I'm not sure why you mention Philip here. jt: I mention Philip because both he and Peter made sure there was something going on in the heart having to do with faith before they baptized these people. DavidM: Peter did not understand that salvation had been extended to these people, so he did not baptize them first. jt: Baptizing them first would have put the cart before the horse and resulted in dead profession which there is a lot of nowdays. Baptism should be the outcome of the 'obedience of faith' Grace and Peace, Judy ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
