> > The Bible teaches that TRUSTING IN WORKS
> > nullifies grace. It does not teach that works nullify
> > grace. If it did, then all the righteous men from
> > Abraham to the apostle John who had good
> > works would have had the grace of God nullified
> > in their life. What a ridiculous notion! Please
> > present Scripture to explain your position, or
> > retract your statement that works nullify grace.
>
>Glenn wrote:
> > If you agree with Michael's statement then the
> > above doesn't make sense to me.
>
>Perhaps you are gleaning something from Michael's statement that I am not.
>I see no contradiction, nor why what I wrote above would not make sense to
>you.
>
>Michael wrote:
> > To Paul, a man is not saved by works,
> > - For by grace are you saved through faith...
> > not of works, lest any man shall boast.
> > Yet he said let the believer's life be full
> > of good works. He never uses it as a
> > condition of getting saved.
>
>All that Michael said here is that salvation is of faith, not of works. He
>made no indication that works nullify grace, such as you did. Perhaps
>Michael can tell us whether he believes that works nullify grace.
>
>David Miller wrote:
> > Back to the Bible. The Bible teaches that faith,
> > which is a work of grace in our lives, is PERFECTED
> > by works, NOT NULLIFIED BY WORKS.
> >
> > "Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and
> > BY WORKS WAS FAITH MADE PERFECT?"
> > (Jam 2:22)
>
>Glenn wrote:
> > If you agree with Michael then I don't see
> > any benefit in jockeying over words.
>
>This is not a semantic argument. It is important to understand that saving
>faith produces good works, and that good works do not nullify grace. If
>good works nullify grace, then we had better all start sinning before we
>nullify grace by our good works and become damned by our good works!
>
>Glenn wrote:
>
>
>
>Glenn wrote:
> > Who am I? I am a sinner saved by grace.
> > I am justified - just as if I never sinned.
> > I am claiming no person, including you, is
> > perfect, because of the Biblical definition
> > of perfection, "Be ye perfect as I am perfect".
> > Your definition of perfection is not he same
> > as this verse. You also confuse perfection
> > with maturity, in my opinion.
>
>Was Jesus perfect? All his life? Was he perfect when he was 5 years old?
>Was he mature or immature at 5 years old?
>
>
>Glenn -
> > With the above statement you have made my case.
> > So it was no "ad hominem" argument. This kind of
> > perfection is not Biblical perfection. "Be ye perfect
> > as I am perfect" means be perfect as God is perfect.
> > God has perfect love. God does not grow. Perfection
> > cannot be improved upon. Perfection mature. Why?
> > "Be ye perfect as God is perfect".
>
>Glenn, there are two different ways that the Bible uses the word "perfect."
>There is the idea of indicating "completed" and no room to grow, but that is
>not the only way that the word perfect is used in the Bible.
Michael D: I am glad you introduced this. That was what I was pointing to with the question about Jesus at different ages...I think your statements below are central to this whole issue.
>Was Jesus as perfect as the Father? In other words, did Jesus obey his own
>teaching, or was he the kind of teacher that says do as I say but not as I
>do? Was Jesus as perfect as the heavenly Father? Or would you say that
>Jesus was not perfect because he "learned obedience by the things which he
>suffered" (Heb. 5:8)?
>
>You said, "God does not grow." Was Jesus God? Did Jesus grow? If Jesus
>was God, and Jesus grew, then God can grow.
Michael D: I would think this is stretching it a little here, David. As God, Jesus cannot grow, but as man He can. Remember, when he became a man, he did not try to hold on to His equality with God, but made Himself of no reputation... How He is able to be God, and lay aside His divine attributes to experience life as a man and be only able to do what He sees His father do (...I can of mine own self do nothing...) beats me, but Paul says in I Tim 3:16 that the mystery of godliness is great i.e. God was manifest in the flesh... etc.
>Peace be with you.
>David Miller.
>
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