� Charles Locke wrote:
> Greetings to the TruthTalk group. > > DaveH wrote: > �> Even after discussing it [the Trinity] with other TTers for 3 years > �> now, I don't think I understand it enough to really > �> explain it to another person. > > �� I would like to take a stab at helping DAVEH, DAVEH:� Thanx for joining TT (and the discussion), Perry.� Welcome aboard! > and others who may read > this, understand a little more about the Trinity. My goal here is not to > convince, convert, or coerce any specific belief, but only to explain the > traditional Christian view of the Trinity, and contrast it to the LDS view. > > �� Since I am "on the road", I do not have the Bible references with me. > But, if anyone would like to see them I will look them up when I get home > and post them. This discussion will focus on the principle of the Trinity > rather than the scriptural support for it. > > �� The first argument a "non-trinitarian" will use against the Trinity is > that the word "Trinity" never occurs in the Bible. Well, if we used THAT as > the only criterion for determining if the Trinity is real, then a good > percentage of most religions would go out the window!� So, this argument is > specious, DAVEH:� To me (and my LDS bias), that isn't necessarily specious at all.� If there is a doctrine inspired by the devil, then one would expect it to readily adopted by those who are susceptible to false doctrine. > and frequently used as the first line of defense by those who want > to refute the Trinity rather than understand it > I am confident that no one > in this group is shallow enough to use this lame argument. DAVEH:� That's me.......lame brain Hansen! > �� The name "Trinity" and the Trinitarian doctrine are used to resolve an > apparent paradox that appears in the Bible, but is not specifically > identified as doctrine anywhere in the Biblical texts. This paradox is REAL, > and it is in the text, and can be seen by anyone who cares to read it. DAVEH:� Yikes....don't leave me drooling.....what is the paradox? > �� The RCC and the Protestants (which I will call "traditional > Christianity") resolve this paradox by assigning three "persons" (which in > itself is confusing already, because most of us think of "persons" as > separate beings) to a single being. DAVEH:� Ahhhhh.....yes, that is the part that I don't understand.� Why can not there be 3 persons in the Godhead?� Why does the T-Doctrine is try to ignore that there are 3 individuals in the Godhead?� If the answer is that there is 'only one God', it seems to me that it is obvious that there were "gods many" and Israel had trouble sticking with the one important to them, so they were commanded to only worship one God. > �� The LDS resolve this same paradox, but they do so by making the Father > and the Son separate individual beings. DAVEH:� It doesn't seem like a paradox to me, nor do I recall ever hearing any LDS folks thinking of it as a paradox. > �� At this point let me interject that a difference I have noticed between > LDS' and traditional Christians' theology is that traditional Christians > admit that not every concept in the Bible can be clearly understood by men, > since "my ways are not your ways", as Jesus put it. However, the LDS seem to > have to have a logical, humanly understandable explanation for everything. DAVEH:� While I'm not sure LDS theology answers 'everything', I do agree with your general concept. > Their respective concepts of the Trinity reveal this. > > �� The paradox is thus: > > 1. Throughout the Bible is is made VERY clear that there is only one God. > There are many passages that support this, and it generally is not a point > of contention. DAVEH:� If you are speaking about LDS theology, perhaps you don't understand it.� The very term "Elohim" suggests plurality. And of course there are passages that infer our God is one of many...... "God standeth in the congregation of the mighty, he judgeth among the gods."� PS 82:1 .......And of course even Jesus quoted Psalms 82:6........ "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of the children of the most High." > 2. In contrast to that, the hebrew names and words used to reveal God's name > and character are often are expressed in plural form, but in singular usage. > > 3. There are certain acts toward GOD that are to be expressed directly and > exclusively to God, such as praying and worship. > > 4. There are certain actions which only God can perform, such as forgiving > sins, and performing miracles. > > and now the paradox... > > 5. All three of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit exhibit the > exclusive attributes of God, DAVEH:� This is another area that I don't understand about the T-Doctrine, and in spite of me asking several times, nobody has responded.� Perhaps you will, Perry.... ��� In fact, the 3 Gods do not "exhibit the exclusive attributes of God".� Regarding the T-Doctrine's comment about "same substance", is it not obvious that Jesus has a resurrected body of flesh and bones, and the Holy Spirit is just that....a spirit being?� I have suggested that our Heavenly Father also has a physical body, but apparently Protestants believe otherwise.� How do you see it, Perry?� And....according to the T-Doctrine, how does "substance" figure into this??? > and are given the exclusive acts of worship and > reverence that only should be expressed to God! > > So, there are only two reasonable resolutions to this: > > 1. Either the Father and the Son are separate beings, which leads to > polytheism, as in the LDS church. (I have heard some very interesting > rationalizations for why this is NOT polytheism). DAVEH:� Let me explain it very simply for those who may be wondering what you heard.....we worship one God. > The Holy Spirit is not a > problem in this paradigm, since the LDS Gods have a human form and once were > human, and each has a spirit of his own. DAVEH:� That is not quite what LDS theology teaches.� The Holy Spirit is not (and WAS not) a human, but he is a God and a rightful part of the Godhead. > 2. There are three co-existant, but separate and distinct "persons" combined > in a single God, which are called out in the Bible as the Father, the Son, > and the Holy Spirit. Traditional Christianity adopts this resolution, which > avoids polytheism, but introduces a cognitive dissonance due to our lack of > ability to fully understand this "mystery". DAVEH:� We (LDS) simply refer to it as the Godhead. > �� So, in conclusion, the word "Trinity" is used by traditional Christians > to express a paradoxical concept that is in the Scriptures, and the > Trinitarian doctrine was developed to provide a resolution to this paradox, > although it does include a "mystery". > > �� On the other hand, the LDS concept of multiple Gods removes the > "mystery", but introduces polytheism, which must be dealt with. DAVEH:� We deal with it as they dealt with it in Bible times.....We worship only one God. > �� I certainly hope this helps understand the Trinitarian concept. DAVEH:� It will help if you can explain the 'substance' issue. > And, not > being LDS, I hope I have represented the LDS position fairly. DAVEH:� I've tried to clarify some of our beliefs where you were a little hazy. > Perry > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. 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