Slade wrote: > Here's the deal, Dave. There are multiple ways > to view the same passage.
I understand the Jewish concept of PARDES and agree that this approach reveals treasures in God's word. Nevertheless, this concept is not a license to apply any sensible view to the meaning of a passage. Not all viewpoints are valid. The Holy Ghost had something in mind to communicate. Slade wrote: > I am speaking specifically of an interpretation > given of Ephesians 2:19-22 (notice I said AN > interpretation, not the sole interpretation). I mean you no offense, but I do not find your interpretation to be that which the Holy Spirit is communicating in this passage. Rather, I think your infatuation with Torah and written precepts has caused you to project your own hidden meaning into this passage, a meaning which is not at all in the mind of the author, which is the Holy Spirit. Let's visit again what you said. Following is what you wrote about this passage: ----------------------------------------------- So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit. (Ephesians 2:19-22) I love the hidden meaning in this passage. Let me show it to you. ... If I may be so bold, I will paraphrase the middle portion of the text for you so you can see it in its glory: having been built on the foundation of the Apostles [New Testament Writings] and the prophets [the books of Joshua thru Malachi], Christ Jesus Himself [The Torah, i.e. Genesis thru Deuteronomy] being the cornerstone. Isn't that cool? ---------------------- End of Quote ------------------- Now I understand that this is "cool" to you, but to me, it is very wrong. It is simply a way to make the New Testament go back and become the Old Testament all over again. I've heard it said, "The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed." You have reversed this saying, and made the Old Testament concealed in the New Testament! And to what purpose? If the New Testament was simply a hidden way of speaking about Torah, something which was already in place, one must ask, "why the secrecy about Torah"? It just plain does not make sense. The passage in Ephesians is very important. Surely you agree that there is an enmity between Jews and Gentiles because of Torah. Do you agree? If not, please speak up. If we understand that Torah has caused a schism between those who are Jews and those who are not, then the passage in Ephesians is important in showing how that enmity is broken down. Is it broken down by apostolic writings of the New Testament, the books of Joshua thru Malachi, and the Torah? Of course not. Many Christians today who adhere to the apostolic writings of the New Testament, the books of Joshua thru Malachi, and the Torah, continue to have enmity with Jews. None of the WRITINGS have solved the problem of the enmity. In fact, the WRITINGS have caused the problem. What has solved the problem is when a person places faith in the person of Jesus Christ (not his writings [he left us none], nor the Torah). When you say that the Holy Spirit meant to communicate to us that the cornerstone of the ekklesia is the Torah, that is way out in left field. I speak plainly, not to anger you, but to make it clear to you that I reject this as any kind of "derash" or "sod." You are so wrapped up in this veiled understanding of Ephesians 2:19-22 that you cannot see the true glory of the passage. The true glory is that when we incorporate the revelation of Christ into our lives, we will live out the Torah in deed by having it written upon our hearts. The reason he speaks about apostles and prophets, and Jesus Christ being the chief cornerstone, is because it is the apostles and prophets among us (not the dead apostles and prophets who left us writings, but the living apostles and prophets) who exemplify spiritual revelation, which is the foundation for our relationship with God, which in turn is the foundation for the church (see Matthew 16:16-18). If you can see that Ephesians 2:19-22 is speaking about something corporate, the church, the household of God, and connect it with this passage in Mat. 16, the passage is full of glory in showing how REVELATION as opposed to WRITING is what makes this all work. In other words, I find your interpretation of Eph. 2:19-22 to be the OPPOSITE of the meaning meant to be conveyed by the Holy Spirit. I realize that this comment might be annoying to you, that in fact you might have been filled with joy thinking that the Holy Spirit gave you the interpretation or hidden meaning that you have, but this is definitely a sore spot between us. Perhaps it deserves more careful and thorough discussion between us. For your convenience, here is the passage in Mat. 16 which shows the role of revelation in regards to corporate fellowship. I assume that I do not need to establish for you that apostles and prophets exemplify this revelation to the those coming into the church. --------------------------------------------- He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Matthew 16:15-19) --------------------------------------------- Slade wrote: > There are two passages I would like to show you. > Both of these relate to the Law and to the Spirit. > ... According to Jeremiah 31, what must a person do > to have YHVH their God? His Law must be written on > their hearts. How is this done? When YHVH blesses us > with the presence of the Holy Spirit within our lives. > If you have the Holy Spirit you will have the Torah > written on our hearts and we will walk in them, not > figure out ways to circumnavigate them or choose > to "spiritualize" its words so we can be a people > of words and not deeds (James 1:22). I agree fully with what you share here. I have Torah written on my heart. I walk in it and fulfill its precepts, but not by studying Torah and making sure that I have kept every written jot and tittle, but by being led of the Spirit in all things. Slade wrote: > "But this is the covenant which I will make with > the house of Israel after those days," declares YHVH, > "I will put My Torah within them and on their heart > I will write it; and I will be their God, and they > shall be My people. They will not teach again, each > man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, > 'Know YHVH,' for they will all know Me, from the least > of them to the greatest of them," declares YHVH, "for > I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will > remember no more." (Jeremiah 31:31-34) Notice carefully how he says that they will no more teach their neighbor, "Know Yahweh." This speaks about the Spirit living within us and causing us to walk in his ways. If we are scrutinizing over Torah to see that we keep every precept, then we have not experienced what this passage is talking about. This New Covenant is one that is not based upon the WRITTEN WORD, but rather it is based upon the LIVING WORD. The written word testifies to it, and points us to it, but the realization of it is the living word and not the written word. We experience it when the Holy Spirit consumes our lives and causes us to walk in the ways of the Lord. Then we keep Torah even if we didn't know what was written in it. Slade wrote: > To say that obedience to the Law is legalism > and doesn't show the working of the Spirit > is shallow thinking. Hold on there. I have never said nor implied that obedience to the law is legalism. I obey Torah and all that is written in the prophets. What I'm talking about is a new way of obeying it, not in the letter, as did many of the Jews of Christ's day, but in the Spirit, as Jesus Christ and his apostles and prophets did. Slade wrote: > You quoted "Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put > a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither > our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe > that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we > shall be saved, even as they." (Acts 15:10-11) Now > look at Verse one and five to find out what YOKE > they're talking about. It's not Torah observance > It's LEGALISM to the core. ... But some of the sect > of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, > "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them > to observe the Law of Moses." (Acts 15:5) The yoke was the manner in which Jews were then observing Torah. You said to look at Acts 15:1-5, well, read verse 5. What does it say? It says, "to direct them to observe the Law of Moses." What did the apostles, elders, and brethren say about this in their letter to Antioch and the other churches? Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and KEEP THE LAW: TO WHOM WE GAVE NO SUCH COMMANDMENT: How much plainer can it be? Why would you contradict the Word of God here and say that it had nothing to do with Torah observance? It clearly had everything to do with Torah observance. Slade wrote: > Your statement of "As we know, the decision of the > apostles and elders and the whole church at Jerusalem > was that Gentiles were not expected to keep the Torah" > is a false supposition from a false premise. Abandon > the idea. What I meant was that the ruling of the Jerusalem church was that they never taught that Gentiles had to be Torah observant. Gentiles keep the Torah, but in a different way. Remember how Stephen was accused of preaching that the temple would be destroyed and the customs of Moses would change? You might think that to be a false accusation because it was said by his enemies, but there is an element of truth to it. The way in which it was false was that they were trying to say that he was against Torah. Stephen was no more against Torah than I am. Nevertheless, Stephen understood something, and that is that the way of righteousness through Christ differs from the way of righteousness through Torah. Through Christ is based upon faith and a living Spirit, but the way of Torah is based upon doing what is written. These result in different customs and traditions, and also in a different temple for God. We really need to discuss this more thoroughly. Please prayerfully consider what I am sharing with you. It might appear on the surface that I am splitting hairs, but these hairs can be the difference between the righteousness of Christ and the righteousness of Torah. Please see the difference and don't be impaired from coming into Christ's righteousness because of Torah observance. Acts 15 says it all. Would you, given your perspective, have made the declaration in Acts 15 that the Jerusalem church did? How would your own personal declaration have differed from theirs if you were encountered with the same problem and did not have Acts 15 to turn to. Would the Spirit had led you to say that the Gentiles did not have to keep the law, but only the necessary things mentioned in verse 29? Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well, Fare ye well. If you would not have written this same conclusion, then it may be that you are not walking in the same mind as the Jerusalem brethren. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
