You wrote:"Read Matthew 15:21-28. Ask yourself: who are the dogs? If you answer GENTILES, you are correct. Now read Revelation 22:14-15. Ask yourself: who are the dogs? If you answer GENTILES, you are correct."
I do not disgaree with you to be disagreeable, but I must disagree with you on both counts! In Matthew 15 the Lord Jesus was NOT saying that "the children" were Israelites and the "dogs" were Gentiles! Neither does Rev.22 teach that no Gentiles will enter through the gates into the great city, the holy Jerusalem!! In fact many Isrealites after the flesh will be without and many Gentiles will be within the holy city!
The whole point of the Lord Jesus' conversation with the Canaanite woman was to determine whether or not she had faith. He concluded that indeed she had "great faith"! Both dogs and swine (Matt.7:6) are unclean animals. When the terms are applied to people, they designate those who are unlean, i.e. have not been sanctified. Hebrews 6:11 declares that without faith it is impossible to please God. So both of your Matt.15 and Rev.22 passages are clearly distinguishing between believers and unbelievers NOT between Israelites and Gentiles!!! See parallel passages to Rev.22:14 and 15 in Rev.21:8 and Rev.21:24-27 (note that the word for "nations" in 21:24 and 26 is the very same Greek word as "Gentiles"!)
When I wrote:"Do you believe that all Gentile believers should keep the "Ten Commandments" which were given specificly to the nation of Israel? Ex.20"...
You responded:"The term "Gentile Believer" is an oxymoron. They do not exist."
Brother, as I understand scripture, it does not support the idea that Gentiles cease to be Gentiles when they get saved. Rather it clearly teaches that those who were Gentiles before conversion remain Gentiles after conversion. See the following scriptural statements:
Acts 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto ***the brethren which are of the Gentiles*** in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
Acts 21:25 As touching ***the Gentiles which believe***, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
To the brethren at Rome who were Gentiles, Paul wrote in Romans 1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) ***that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.***
Romans 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only?*** is he not also of the Gentiles ? Yes, of the Gentiles also:***
Romans 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, ***not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles ***?
Romans 9:30 What shall we say then?*** That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.***
Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall ***salvation is come unto the Gentiles,*** for to provoke them to jealousy.
Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them ***the riches of the Gentiles***; how much more their fulness?
Romans 11:13 *** For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles , I magnify mine office***:
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, ***until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.***
Romans 15:9 And ***that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy***; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles , and sing unto thy name.
Romans 15:10 And again he saith, ***Rejoice, ye Gentiles***, with his people.
Romans 15:11 And again, ***Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.***
Romans 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles ;*** in him shall the Gentiles trust.***
Romans 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, ***that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.***
Romans 15:27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. ***For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.***
Romans 16:4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also ***all the churches of the Gentiles.***
Galatians 2:12 For before that certain came from James, ***he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.***
Galatians 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, ***If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?***
Writing to the Ephesian saints who were Gentiles, Paul writes in Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ ***for you Gentiles ,***
Ephesians 3:6 That ***the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel***:
Colossians 1:27 ***To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:***
Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, ***of all nations (Gentiles), and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;***
You continued:"Gentiles who were formerly far off, yes, should keep not only the "Ten Commandments," but all commands they know and understand from all of Scripture. This is not a salvation issue. It is an love/obedience issue between the believer and YHVH."
When I asked:"Particularly, do you believe it is God's intention for all Christians to keep the 7th day sabbath?
You answered:"Yes."
When I continued:"It was given to Israel forever as a sign between them and God. (Ex.31:13-17)"
You responded:"You are correct. Read Romans 11 and you will discover that Gentiles who were formerly far off are grafted into Israel."
Slade, I have never found any scripture that indicates that the "olive tree" of Romans 11 is Israel!!! Israel (as a physical nation) was elected (chosen) by God to be a special people unto Himself, but this did not mean they were chosen to eternal salvation.. (Deut.7:6-8) But, in Romans 9, Paul clearly states that Israel, his "kinsmen according to the flesh" v.3 were not all "children of God" or "children of the promise" v.8. God's new covenant election did not have to do with a physical nation but rather to a KIND of people (Jews and Gentiles) which is described in I Cor.1:27-29. This election is not a national matter at all! No Gentile who has ever been converted to Christ has ever been grafted into Israel! No Gentile has ever become an "Israelite" by being born again! Many have assumed that this is so, but not even one statement of scripture teaches this idea! Rather, the term that is used in Romans 11 to designate who comprises the "olive tree" is "the election". See verses 5, 7 and 28. In fact, the term "the election" is found nowhere else in scripture BUT Romans 11!
Slade, it seems to me that you ignore the fact that commands of scripture that are addressed to specific individuals or groups and are NOT required of others. There were many godly Gentile believers who did not observe the sabbath nor were they expected to do so. (i.e. Adam, Noah, Seth, Abraham, Job, Naaman, and all Gentile believers of the new covenant!) There is not a scrap of evidence that ANY of them were sabbath keepers! There are commands addressed to men which are not required of women. There are commands to women which are not required of men. Only one man on earth was commanded by God to go to Mount Moriah and offer his son for a burnt offering. But if one were to take your view of scriptural commands, every man with an only son named "Isaac" should obey the command of Gen.22:2!! Once you understand the foolishness of such an approach to scripture, I trust that you will see that obedience to commands from God is only expected of those to whom the commands are given!
Circumscision in the flesh is another example. It was commanded to be observed by those born in Abraham's house, (descendants of Abraham by Hagar through Ishmael, by Sarah through Isaac, and by Keturah through Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah) but clearly was never intended to be required of others! See Acts 15.
When I wrote:"If Gentiles kept the sabbath how could it be a "sign" for Israel?? (i.e. Stop signs have their purpose in specific locations such as busy intersections. But if everyone erected a stop sign at the end of their driveways, soon all stop signs would be ignored, even the ones at the intersections!)
You responded:"Answered in Romans 11 and Revelation 22:15. Your stop sign argument is weak and serves no porpose except to justify the removal of all stop signs."
Dear Slade, neither Romans 11 or Rev.22:15 make any reference or allusion to sabbath keeping!!! According to Ex.31:13-17 the sabbath was a sign between God and the children of Israel.
13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the
LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
All signs signify something because they are distinct from everything else around them. If everything else around was the same as the sign, the sign would have no significance. In like manner, if all people kept the sabbath, it would no longer have any significance relative to God's relationship with Israel!
When I wrote:"I am convinced that God gave three physical practices that are to be observed by Israelites forever to clearly distinguish them from other nations: (1)Circumcision, Gen.17, (2)The Passover Ex.12 and (3) The seventh day sabbath. Ex.31. "...
You responded:"You are convinced. I am convinced in your error."
Dear Slade, would you please be specific and use scripture to tell me what it is in the above that you believe to be in error?
You also wrote: "that Passover (communion) is the redemption of the Israeli people from Egypt."
Slade, Israel's Passover and the communion or breaking of bread by new covenant saints are two vastly different memorial meals!
-The Passover is a memorial of an EVENT, Israel's redemption from Egyptian bondage just prior to the giving of the covenant at Sinai (called the "old covenant in Heb.8:13) But the beaking of bread is done in remebrance of PERSON, the Lord Jesus Christ, Himself. (Luke 22:19,10) This memorial meal was instituted just prior to the dedication of the new covenant at Calvary.
-The Passover is to be observed by Israel, the nation which was delivered from Egypt. But the breaking of bread in remembrance of the Lord Jesus is to be done by all new covenant saints.
-The Passover is to be observed ANNUALLY. Breaking of bread was and is done DAILY by new covenant saints.
-The menu of the Passover is roast lamb, unleavened bread and bitter herbs which were the staple diet of a nation of slaves who were shepherds. (No cup or beverage is specified in scripture as part of the passover meal.) The menu of breaking of bread in remembrance of the Lord is bread and a cup, simple staple foods of the disciples in Jesus' day so that the poorest of saints in any day and in any culture can use their simple staple foods by which to remember their Lord.
-The participants in the Passover meal are to be Israelites and strangers who live among them, there was never any requirement that passover participants be in right relationship to God. Everyone breaks bread and drinks from cups but such eating is only "the Lord's Supper" for regenerate people who are "the Lord's" and do so "in remembrance of Him"!
-The time period during which the Passover is to be observed is "forever". But breaking bread in remembrance of the Lord Jesus is only "till He comes". I trust these 6 contrasts will clearly demonstrate that the Passover and "communion" are NOT one and the same and that the latter is NOT a continuation of the former.
Finally, you wrote:" I look forward to more debate, Bruce. I do not come on all that often, so there may be some time between your response and mine, but please understand I mean no disrespect."
Dear Slade, I do not want you nor anyone with whom I communicate to be under any restraints to reply within a limitted period of time. Feel free to respond as you have time and the Lord grants you the opportunity. But brother, I do NOT write here for the sake of debate. I have no desire to "defend a point of view" and remain forever where I am in my thinking at the present! Rather, I want to write to express what I currently believe to be the truth of scripture. If anything I write is contrary to scripture I hope to be corrected by scripture, to acknowledge my wrong and to become more sound and Christ-like in my teaching and practice than before. So you will do me a tremendous favour, not by skillfully debating an argument, but by helping me from scripture to see where my thinking needs to change to agree with the Spirit of God.
Your brother in Christ, Bruce
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