From: Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>DAVEH: As I understand Protestant theology, God created Satan and knew what Satan would do. He also created Adam and Eve and knew what they were going to do. Unless God intended for Adam/Eve to 'fall', why do Protestants place them in a situation where he knew they would fall? Or better yet, why did God create Satan, knowing all the trouble he would ultimately cause?
jt: Satan was originally created to be the covering cherub over God's throne and that worked until he became obsessed with his own beauty and decided that he was smarter than God. However, God made provision for this before the foundation of the world so He was two steps ahead.
DAVEH: From a Protestants
viewpoint, wouldn't it have been better if he have been three steps ahead?
Isn't a world without sin, suffering and pain a goal for which Christians
strive? Could not God have provided such a safe environment in which his
followers would be able to worship him without distractions or
temptations? >From a Protestant's perspective, why would God not want
such a situation for his children?
jt: The final outcome of God's Plan will be a world devoid of sin,
suffering, and pain and those left standing at the end will be the ones who are
of one heart and one mind with the Godhead; they are the ones who have made
it through the fires of testing and have come forth as gold, holy without
spot or blemish.
dh: If God is all knowing, and all powerful then it would seem like either he made a mistake, or he intended that sin and failure be a part of our life.jt: Or He saw the end result as worth the risk/price.
DAVEH: I think you are missing the point of my question, Judy. Being all knowing and powerful, why did he not simply bind Satan (I assume you believe he has the power to do so) and put an end to the misery and suffering many mortals experience. jt: In His wisdom He knew that to ensure
DAVEH: ???......Do you mean to say that you don't think God would have known who would be faithful and who would not? Does he really have to "ensure" our loyalty?jt: He knew before the foundation of the world, he has always known who would obey and who wouldn't. In His great love and mercy He gives us all a measure of time to get it right. How do you propose that God create beings who are morally free and yet still love and obey Him without them being like the Stepford wives? (perfect automatons)
fidelity/faithfulness on the part of his creatures they would have to love Him as He loved them. I don't know if you have ever studied Covenant Dave. God is a God of Covenant and Satan's treachery is used to test them. God tests everything He creates.
DAVEH: I'm trying to find out
why Protestants think that is necessary for a God to do who knows
everything. IF he did NOT know everything, then it would seemingly make
sense that he test everybody. But as I understand it, Protestants believe
God knows who will pass and who will fail the test.....is that not correct,
Judy?
jt: Yes, He's aware from the start, it's us who need to see that we miss
the mark. In the OT He tells us that this is the reason He allows false prophets
who speak divination - to test His people, and some will not pass the
test. Paul writes to the church at Thessalonica that God Himself will send
strong delusion to those who do not love the Truth so that they may believe the
lie.
but I don't find any good in sin, I just accept that it is a fact of life, that I was born with that kind of an inheritance. It took me a while to learn that Jesus had paid the price for me to be free from sin and reconciled to God because IMO generationally our thinking has become so skewed that today most protestants don't have a problem with what God calls sin. The fruit of sin is more sin, it's an ongoing cycle into decadence and destruction.DAVEH: I understand that, Judy. I'm trying to go a step further to find out what purpose God feels it serves for us to experience sin, misery and agony. jt: God has set a standard (His Word) and if we obey we are blessed, if we disobey we are cursed (see Deut 28,29) so the onus is on us and our children. God Himself wants to bless and is not willing that any should perish, He is much more merciful and long suffering than any man. dh: He had the power to prevent it in A&E's day, and he could stop it now, but for some reason he has not. I'm trying to figure out what Protestants think that reason is. jt: He could have stopped it and bound the devil at the price of making us zombies, puppets, a creation under total and complete control. Something like Communism or the Nazis but this is totally against His nature and character. He wants to fellowship with those who are at peace with Him and not a bunch of rebels. Look at the situation with the rich young ruler who came to Christ. He was willing to keep all of God's Law and said he had done so from his youth. However, he lacked one thing in that he wasn't willing to give up the greed in his heart and so went away sorrowful and Jesus didn't chase him down.jt: As for David murdering Uriah. I know in our natural thinking we excuse him by saying he didn't actually do it; but God held him responsible in 1 Kings 15:5 we are told "David did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite." It took David a year and a visit from the prophet to repent but when he did his repentance was deep (see Psalm 51).DAVEH: Welllllllllllll.......you are going to drag me into this tangent, eh! That's OK......I'll just make a brief comment about it. IMHO, I do not equate "the matter of Uriah the Hittite" with cold blooded murder, as you implied. jt: It was planned in secret and David was counting on him being killed on the front lines to hide the fact that he had fathered Uriah's wifes child. How much more cold blooded do you want it to be?
DAVEH: Had Uriah not died on the
front line, another would have. Would that have been cold blooded murder
in your eyes, Judy? If you say "no" to that, and "yes" to Uriah, it seems
as though you would have a double standard. Do you understand the point
I'm trying to make? On one hand you see it as murder, and on the other you
(presumably) don't. It seems a hypocritical position to
take.
jt: It's the position taken by God Himself. In my natural carnal reasoning
I could make all kinds of excuses for David but he knew what he was doing.
In 2 Sam 11:15 we are told "David commands Uriah's death" In Vs.27 "the
thing David did was evil in God's sight" and in 2 Sam 12:9 the prophet Nathan
tells David "You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword of the sons of
Ammon" - we look at things outwardly but God knows the motives of the heart and
NOTHING is hid from Him with whom we have to do and the righteous judgment
of God says that whatever is done in secret will be shouted from the
housetops indeed this is the case in point with David's sin.
dh: Scripture does not use the term "murder" or similar, so I find it
curious that many Christians connote it that way. Seems to me like they
(you) may be reading more into it than what was stated.
jt: Scripture does use the term "murder and murderers"
DAVEH: I solely referring to the
context of the passages relating to Uriah.
jt: I'd say 2 Sam 12:9 is saying the same thing, responsibility for Uriah's
death is placed squarely on David's shoulders.
In John 8:44 we are told that Satan was a murderer from the beginning; and before the cross the people chose a murderer to be freed rather than Jesus. jt: I have a question - are you really a Mormon and if so how so? DAVEH: LOL......Forgive me for laughing, but I forgot that you are rather new to TT. Yes, I'm LDS (Mormon). I've been a member for nearly 48 years. I'm not sure how to answer your "how so" question though. Did you have a specific question in mind? jt: My how so question is asking - were you born into Mormonism or persuaded into it?DAVEH: Our family joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints when I was 8 years old.
If the latter then what do you find so appealing about it?DAVEH: I find it logically answers a lot of questions that seem to be overlooked by most religions. That is why I'm asking questions about how Protestants understand the purpose for the fall of Adam and Eve, and why God allows Lucifer to reign for a time on earth relatively unimpeded.
--jt: You really find Mormonism logical? I've been into genealogy and used to visit the local FHC so I have met a lot of very nice Mormon ppl but I don't find the belief system logical by any stretch because the writings of Joseph Smith et al conflict with the clear Word of Truth which is scripture. Have you thought about this?Grace and Peace,Judy
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Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
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