----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 9:03
AM
Subject: [TruthTalk] Adams FALL
UPWARD
> From: "Charles Perry Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I really see two different ideas being discussed here:
>
> 1) the idea of a child being born with inherent, original sin, resulting
> from the fall and inherited from Adam, and
>
> 2) a child being born with a sin nature resulting from the fall and
> inherited from Adam.
>
> I believe the first leads to the idea of infant baptism to wash away the
> inherent sin, as in the RCC, and the second leads to the idea of an age
> of
> accountability, before which one has a sin nature but is not held
> accountable for sins committed prior to some point in one's life.
>
> David seems to be arguing from the viewpoint of the first, while Judy
> seems to be arguing from the viewpoint of the second. Do I have this
> right?
>
> Judy:
> I really see two different ideas being discussed here:
>
> 1) the idea of a child being born with inherent, original sin, resulting
> from the fall and inherited from Adam, and
>
> 2) a child being born with a sin nature resulting from the fall and
> inherited from Adam.
>
> I believe the first leads to the idea of infant baptism to wash away the
> inherent sin, as in the RCC, and the second leads to the idea of an age
> of
> accountability, before which one has a sin nature but is not held
> accountable for sins committed prior to some point in one's life.
>
> David seems to be arguing from the viewpoint of the first, while Judy
> seems to be arguing from the viewpoint of the second. Do I have this
> right?
>
> Judy:
> You have my part right Perry but DaveH so far as I can tell believes
> the same as Blaine which is that children are born innocent and that
> baptizing babies is apostasy and error and is part of protestant
> tradition
> Apparently this is part of the doctrine of Mormonism.
>
> Judy
Blaine: Judy is
determined to stick with the tradition handed down to her and all Protestants
that says children need to be baptized to for the remission of Adam's sin.
This is a glaring error in doctrine, one that was never a part of original
Christianity. Failure to provide scriptural evidence of it being an
original Christian doctrine is more than ample proof it never existed in the
first place. It is, I repeat, a TRADITION, that was started by the great and
abominable church sometime after the persecutions ceased when Constantine made
Christianity the state religion. We need to look this up and find out
exactly when and by whom this false doctrine was started. Then we
might have something to talk about.
tAs for me, I believe the original
doctrine of the early Christian Church is summed up in these words given from
the very mouth of the Savior:
(Luke 18:15-17) "And
they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them, and when his
disciples saw it, they rebuked them.
But Jesus called unto them
and said, suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for
of such is the kingdom of God.
Verily, I say unto you,
whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a
little child shall in nowise enter therein."
How is a little child different
from most adults? It is innocent. Adults must be baptized for the
remission of sins in order to become innocent and be admitted into the
Kingdom of God. But little children do not need this, according to the
Lord's own words. Notice, even here, nothing is said concerning a sin of
Adam needing to be remitted--the children are said to be emminantly
qualified, so much so they furnish us with
the perfect example of how we must become before being qualified to enter the
kingdom.
>
>
>
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >From: Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >How could A&E have sinned, IF they did not know right from
> >wrong?
> >
> >Judy:
> >They knew it was right to obey the voice of the Lord who was their
> >Creator
> >
> >DAVEH:
> >Unless you have Biblical evidence, that would be an assumption
> >on your part, Judy.
> >
> >Judy:
> >It's no assumption and it doesn't take a 'rocket scientist' DaveH.
> >Genesis 2:16 "And the Lord God COMMANDED THE MAN saying
> >of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat....but" - and
> >they certainly knew God meant what He said and they had done
> >wrong after the fact because guilt and shame which is part of the
> >curse was all over them.
> >
> >DAVEH:
> >Thank you......you made my point. It was AFTER partaking the
> >FF that they had the knowledge of good and evil.
> >
> >Judy:
> >They knew it was wrong/evil to rebel against the COMMAND of
> >God. The curse does not come on people for doing good. When
> >you told your child not to do something for their own safety and
> >well being and they did it anyway - did you spank/punish them or
> >did you rationalize that this could not have been wrong because
> >they did not comprehend your whole mindset. Did you find some
> >way to make it good?
> >
> >DAVEH:
> >It does no good to physically punish a child who does not know
> >the difference between right and wrong. First he must be taught
> >what is right and wrong AND he then must be capable of knowing
> >the difference. (Would you physically punish a mentally retarded
> >person for not understanding something?)
> >
> >Judy:
> >What about obeying the voice of his/her Father? I'm not talking
> >about infants here.
> >
> >DAVEH:
> > You seem to be thinking I'm trying to find a way to rationalize
> >that what the did (transgression) was good.
> >
> >Judy:
> >Well that's the subject line isn't it "Adam's Fall Upward?"
> >
> >DAVEH:
> > >From my perspective, I'm not rationalizing at all. I have attained
> >my understanding from extra-Biblical revelation from God.
> >
> >Judy:
> >God does not change, He is not a man that He should lie and He
> >is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Any revelation that is
> >from Him must harmonize with what has already been written.
> >
> >DAVEH:
> >What I am trying to do for you is having you consider the logic
> >of what the Bible tells you without resorting to latter-day revelation.
> >I really don't know much about how Protestantism reacts to thinking
> >outside the box, so to speak.
> >
> >Judy:
> >Hey Dave Aristotle the grandfather of logic was not a believer, he
> >was a pagan Greek so what makes you think logic is the way to
> >Truth? It may be wiser to recognize who you are vs who God is,
> >take responsibility, repent for your own sin and allow God to give
> >you understanding.
> >
> >DAVEH:
> >Do theologians ever wonder why God prepared a Savior before
> >even creating the Garden of Eden? To me, it seems a relatively
> >interesting question that has very important consequences of
> >doctrine.
> >
> >Judy:
> >God in His omniscience knows what will happen before it takes
> >place DaveH so he is more than two steps ahead of all of us and
> >the ONLY way you will ever be able to understand His Word and
> >His Way is to lay aside your own speculations, then come and sit
> >humbly at his feet.
> >
> >DAVEH:
> >To me the LDS perspective makes logical sense, yet the Protestant
> >belief as I understand it leaves a lot of unanswered questions.....
> >and, apparently leads to erroneous doctrine such as original sin and
> >infant baptism.
> >
> >Judy:
> >Well then I guess it's your choice to spend eternity with Aristotle,
> >Plato and the rest of the pagan Greeks. Original sin is not a false
> >doctrine and infant baptism is a faith issue on the part of parents.
> >I would much rather be guilty of this than what goes on in the
> >Mormon Temple.
> >
> >DAVEH: Is there any place in the Bible where A&E's eating of the
> >forbidden fruit is referred to as a sin, or......do the Bible authors
> >simply refer to it as a transgression?
> >
> >Judy:
> >The author of the Bible is the Holy Spirit and sin is the transgression
> >of the law" (see 1 John 3:4) A&E had just one law/command in the
> >garden which was - "DO NOT EAT" and they broke it which made
> >them transgressors of God's law and this is sin.
> >
> >DAVEH:
> >Like I said, Judy......the Bible never refers to Adam's Sin it is
> >always Adam's Transgression. Now I would wonder if God's
> >command to Adam equates with law. When a parent tells his
> >child not to do something, is it really law?
> >
> >Judy:
> >I have shown you the definition of sin from scripture, apparently
> >you will not believe it. Parents are not God but a wilfully rebellious
> >child is a scourge upon the home and on society in general. This
> >is why we have civil law; otherwise anarchy would reign.
> >
> >DAVEH:
> >Often (most) times that is the case. But not always, IMHO. Look at
> >James 4:17......."Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it
> >not, to him it is sin." This begs the question, does it not did Adam &
> >Eve knoweth to do good prior to partaking of the fruit.
> >
> >Judy:
> >Yes they did know to do good since obeying God is what they were
> >COMMANDED and knew to do and this is always GOOD.
> >
> >DAVEH:
> >I'd say you are logically upside down on that, Judy.
> >
> >Judy:
> >I don't follow logic DaveH even though God's Word is not capricious
> >or illogical; the rules of logic are not the way to receive
> understanding
> >from God. Disobeying God is BAD because transgressing His law is
> >sin; this is HIS definition and the only one that counts so far as
> >eternity is concerned.
> >
> >DAVEH:
> >So...you are saying a small child who transgresses is sinning is that
> >correct? If so, I respectfully disagree with you on that, Judy.
> >
> >Judy:
> >No I am not saying that. I used the child only as an analogy. A&E
> >were created full grown - they were not infants and the one who
> >created them held them responsible to obey His COMMAND.
> >----------
> >"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
> >know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
> >http://www.InnGlory.org
> >
> >If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a
>
> >friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get some great ideas here for your sweetheart on Valentine's Day - and
> beyond. http://special.msn.com/network/celebrateromance.armx
>
> ----------
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
> know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
> http://www.InnGlory.org
>
> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a
> friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
> ----------
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
>
> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
>
>
>
>
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >From: Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >How could A&E have sinned, IF they did not know right from
> >wrong?
> >
> >Judy:
> >They knew it was right to obey the voice of the Lord who was their
> >Creator
> >
> >DAVEH:
> >Unless you have Biblical evidence, that would be an assumption
> >on your part, Judy.
> >
> >Judy:
> >It's no assumption and it doesn't take a 'rocket scientist' DaveH.
> >Genesis 2:16 "And the Lord God COMMANDED THE MAN saying
> >of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat....but" - and
> >they certainly knew God meant what He said and they had done
> >wrong after the fact because guilt and shame which is part of the
> >curse was all over them.
> >
> >DAVEH:
> >Thank you......you made my point. It was AFTER partaking the
> >FF that they had the knowledge of good and evil.
> >
> >Judy:
> >They knew it was wrong/evil to rebel against the COMMAND of
> >God. The curse does not come on people for doing good. When
> >you told your child not to do something for their own safety and
> >well being and they did it anyway - did you spank/punish them or
> >did you rationalize that this could not have been wrong because
> >they did not comprehend your whole mindset. Did you find some
> >way to make it good?
> >
> >DAVEH:
> >It does no good to physically punish a child who does not know
> >the difference between right and wrong. First he must be taught
> >what is right and wrong AND he then must be capable of knowing
> >the difference. (Would you physically punish a mentally retarded
> >person for not understanding something?)
> >
> >Judy:
> >What about obeying the voice of his/her Father? I'm not talking
> >about infants here.
> >
> >DAVEH:
> > You seem to be thinking I'm trying to find a way to rationalize
> >that what the did (transgression) was good.
> >
> >Judy:
> >Well that's the subject line isn't it "Adam's Fall Upward?"
> >
> >DAVEH:
> > >From my perspective, I'm not rationalizing at all. I have attained
> >my understanding from extra-Biblical revelation from God.
> >
> >Judy:
> >God does not change, He is not a man that He should lie and He
> >is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Any revelation that is
> >from Him must harmonize with what has already been written.
> >
> >DAVEH:
> >What I am trying to do for you is having you consider the logic
> >of what the Bible tells you without resorting to latter-day revelation.
> >I really don't know much about how Protestantism reacts to thinking
> >outside the box, so to speak.
> >
> >Judy:
> >Hey Dave Aristotle the grandfather of logic was not a believer, he
> >was a pagan Greek so what makes you think logic is the way to
> >Truth? It may be wiser to recognize who you are vs who God is,
> >take responsibility, repent for your own sin and allow God to give
> >you understanding.
> >
> >DAVEH:
> >Do theologians ever wonder why God prepared a Savior before
> >even creating the Garden of Eden? To me, it seems a relatively
> >interesting question that has very important consequences of
> >doctrine.
> >
> >Judy:
> >God in His omniscience knows what will happen before it takes
> >place DaveH so he is more than two steps ahead of all of us and
> >the ONLY way you will ever be able to understand His Word and
> >His Way is to lay aside your own speculations, then come and sit
> >humbly at his feet.
> >
> >DAVEH:
> >To me the LDS perspective makes logical sense, yet the Protestant
> >belief as I understand it leaves a lot of unanswered questions.....
> >and, apparently leads to erroneous doctrine such as original sin and
> >infant baptism.
> >
> >Judy:
> >Well then I guess it's your choice to spend eternity with Aristotle,
> >Plato and the rest of the pagan Greeks. Original sin is not a false
> >doctrine and infant baptism is a faith issue on the part of parents.
> >I would much rather be guilty of this than what goes on in the
> >Mormon Temple.
> >
> >DAVEH: Is there any place in the Bible where A&E's eating of the
> >forbidden fruit is referred to as a sin, or......do the Bible authors
> >simply refer to it as a transgression?
> >
> >Judy:
> >The author of the Bible is the Holy Spirit and sin is the transgression
> >of the law" (see 1 John 3:4) A&E had just one law/command in the
> >garden which was - "DO NOT EAT" and they broke it which made
> >them transgressors of God's law and this is sin.
> >
> >DAVEH:
> >Like I said, Judy......the Bible never refers to Adam's Sin it is
> >always Adam's Transgression. Now I would wonder if God's
> >command to Adam equates with law. When a parent tells his
> >child not to do something, is it really law?
> >
> >Judy:
> >I have shown you the definition of sin from scripture, apparently
> >you will not believe it. Parents are not God but a wilfully rebellious
> >child is a scourge upon the home and on society in general. This
> >is why we have civil law; otherwise anarchy would reign.
> >
> >DAVEH:
> >Often (most) times that is the case. But not always, IMHO. Look at
> >James 4:17......."Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it
> >not, to him it is sin." This begs the question, does it not did Adam &
> >Eve knoweth to do good prior to partaking of the fruit.
> >
> >Judy:
> >Yes they did know to do good since obeying God is what they were
> >COMMANDED and knew to do and this is always GOOD.
> >
> >DAVEH:
> >I'd say you are logically upside down on that, Judy.
> >
> >Judy:
> >I don't follow logic DaveH even though God's Word is not capricious
> >or illogical; the rules of logic are not the way to receive
> understanding
> >from God. Disobeying God is BAD because transgressing His law is
> >sin; this is HIS definition and the only one that counts so far as
> >eternity is concerned.
> >
> >DAVEH:
> >So...you are saying a small child who transgresses is sinning is that
> >correct? If so, I respectfully disagree with you on that, Judy.
> >
> >Judy:
> >No I am not saying that. I used the child only as an analogy. A&E
> >were created full grown - they were not infants and the one who
> >created them held them responsible to obey His COMMAND.
> >----------
> >"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
> >know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
> >http://www.InnGlory.org
> >
> >If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a
>
> >friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get some great ideas here for your sweetheart on Valentine's Day - and
> beyond. http://special.msn.com/network/celebrateromance.armx
>
> ----------
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
> know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
> http://www.InnGlory.org
>
> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a
> friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
> ----------
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
>
> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
>
