>From: "Blaine Borrowman"
>To Kevin: Sometimes I even called it the TCBS, for
brevity's sake. Either way, it sends the much needed message that
all is not well in Modern Christianity. I keep getting hints that
I should change my religion and adopt Christian beliefs. If I were
to do that, here is what I have learned from TT that I would be accepting--
>
>1) the Bible is the whole and final word of God and we
need no more Bible--in other words, new revelation is disallowed;
cpl: Revelation is not disallowed. Many experience personal
revelation through the Holy Spirit. We Christians admit that God can give new
revelation if and when he pleases. But, we have no reasion to believe that he
has, because of the many "revealed", "channeled", "inspired" works that have
been produced in the last 2000 years, and especially in the last 200 years,
none of them stand in light of the Bible, and especailly not the BoM.
They are all contradictory and evilly inspired counterfeits. Plus, Jude 3 says
the canon of scripture is closed. Jude 3?
There is only one chapter in Jude, it has 25 verses. I found no verse
saying the scripture was closed. Are you aware that the books of the NT,
starting with Acts, are arranged according to length, longest first and
shortest (Jude) last? They are not sequenced according to time of
writing.
>2) infant baptism is needed for children to be saved, or it
is not needed (this appears to be optional);
cpl: Infant baptism is not practiced in most Christian churchs.
In fact, since Baptists make up the largest Christian denomination, and there
are many other denominations that do not practice infant baptism, it can be
argued that infant baptism is not the norm in Christian. So, why do you dwell
on this? I was not really dwelling on it.
As I said, it appears to be an option, as some do practice it, many have
practiced it in the past, while many apparently, acccording to you,
do not practice it at all. I was merely pointing out
the present inconsistencies. Christianity is inconsistent on this point,
at least, agreed?
>3) either the mode of baptism doesn't matter (sprinkling, immersion,
whatever), or baptism itself is not needed at all, this also appears to be
optional;
cpl: It matters to many denominations. Baptists typically immerse,
evangelicals typically immerse. Some do, however, sprinkle. Again, I do not
find sprinkling to be the norm, so why do you dwell on this as
well? Again, I was not dwelling on the practice, but
the inconsistency of what is and what is not
practiced. (:>)>
4) one is saved by easy grace alone, no works are required, but one must at
least pay lip service to show he accepts Jesus Christ 's
atonement (I like this one!!);
You casually throw the word "easy" in there to make it sound like some
hokey doctrine, when it is indeed Biblical...unless you want to ignore Paul.
You know the references. You have this right: No works are required
for salvation. Works, of course, are evidence of your faith, but not the
effector of it. The fruits of the spirit, you mean?
This seems reasonable, it just seems to reject the idea of making a conscious,
concientious effort to help the fruits of the spirit along--that may be the
main difference, huh?
Only God can do that. Salvation is a free gift of god...you cannot
earn a free gift. It is God's grace that makes us undeserving sinners savable.
To say that you have to do ANY works at all to earn salvation is to
rob God of His glory and refuse His free gift (how arrogant and insulting!)
and indicate that you do not trust that he can save you in and of
Himself. This is where I feel the doctrines of
Protestantism are the most consistent, and yet the farthest
from LDS Doctrine. I just don't feel that we can enter into a
covenant with God to be a disciple, then sit back and let him do it all.
None of the Apostles did that. They all worked their buns off, they
showed their faith by their works. They made great sacrifices, and
achieved the victory through their works. It seems that Protestants
generally select certain verses to support the grace-only doctrine, and ignore
the rest of the Bible. Remember the rich young man whom Jesus
loved? His works showed--he kept the commandments strictly.
Unfortunately, he was not able to take the final step of giving up his
riches. That was the works part, however, and he never made it.
Aside from that, he was apparently in every other respect willing to follow
Jesus.
>5) Hell is a place where wicked people are literally burned with
literal fire (scary, but to me, not so much as having to account for a bad
conscience might be);
Again, not all Christians believe in a physical fiery eternal
punishment...many believe that Hell is strictly a separation from God
(which will be quite tormenting in and of itself!) I
think we may not be as far apart as I thought, since separation from God is
basically what we also teach.--we teach that hell is when the
spirit of God is completely withdrawn, which creates the same burning within
that Jesus experienced in the Garden of Gethsemane, which suffering
caused him to sweat blood.
>6) marriage is "until death do us part," so family units and
relationships do not continue after death (If this is true, then loyalty to
one's spouse has little importance);
Loyalty is of GREAT importance in our marraiges. We take an oath
before God to "have and to hold..." our spouses, "until death do us part".
Christians do not take that lightly. We do not forsake the marriage bed (one
flesh) or spread it across several adulterous relationships.The LDS
Church tries to emphasize the eternal nature of
marriage. Marriage outside the
Priesthood authority of the Church, however, is not believed
to continue beyond the grave. We do recognize civil authority, for
this life only, however. We believe all things that are not of our God
and his Christ will be thrown down after the resurrection. (As Jesus
said to Pilate, "my kingdom is not of this world.") Otherwise, our
vows, etc, are apparently similar to yours.
We do proxy marriages for
our dead ancestors, and others (nonmembers) we have records of, to
insure their marriages will be reinstated in eternity, if they so
choose. But we believe they may, if they
choose, reject the proxy ordinance and remain single on the other
side. Some people probably would not want their marriage relationship to
continue, I suppose, huh? (:>)
>7) one must only show kindness to a fellow believer;
Where did you get that idea? Aren't we to love our enemies? I suppose this has come about from what has seemed to be a
rather callous disregard of Mormon sensitivities on TT.
(:>)
>8) I should listen to the spirit, but not report it if I
hear anything for fear of being ridiculed; and finally,
You are sure coming up with some laughable ones yourself at this
point...scraping the bottom og the barrel, eh? I
have had a few experiences of this type--I have been told my revelations are
all of the devil, JS was under the influence of some demon, that my own
perceptions via the spirit have demon sources--I did not think it was at all
humorous. But then, I did to some extent understand that some probably
wished to perceive it that way. How else could they explain
it?
>9) God is just a spirit, and I suppose that is all I will be too, after
I die. The experiences of this brief sojourn in learning to deal
with the pains and sorrows of mortality will mean nothing.
Yes, god is a spirit. The Bible states such. When Christians die, they will
live in the presence of God in a resurrected body. A body of flesh, or a spirit body--a ghost?
I am not sure what the "learning to deal with the pains and sorrows of
mortality" will mean after we are dead, but boy am I excited about
learning! God is a spirit, but Jesus has a tangible
body. hmmm, It seems you are ignoring some passages of scripture, and
assuming that the part that says he is a spirit can be taken out of the
context of the entire Bible. I think we are obviously far apart on this
one. But, thanks for the rational discussion. (:>)
Blaine, here is the bottom line...If the LDS are right, I get a second
chance...but if Christians are right, you are dead in your sins. Either way, I am OK. But as an LDS, I will have to
work harder than I would otherwise. (:>) "We are saved by grace
after all we can do (for ourselves)." BoM
Perry
