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----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 5:21
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Nothing to
respond to or not able?
Blaine Today is the 6th of March,
and I just got to your post, Kevin--I haven't heretofore seen anything
worth responding to that I did not respond to, but if I do, I will do
the best I can to answer it in the amount of time I allow myself each
day for TT. NEVER jump to conclusions, and as Terry (?) said, be
careful, we will have to account for every idle word we utter--or write,
even if only on TT where anything goes!!
(:>)
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Maybe you missed this:
No comment? taking the
fifth?
Holy Bible says God is a SPIRIT
JN 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must
worship him in spirit and in truth.
A spirit does not have flesh and bones
(Luke 24:39)
Blaine: Yeah, I know this
passage, but it is to be understood in connection with all the rest of the
passages dealing with God--for instance, Jesus, said, "handle me and see, for
a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have." It is obvious from
this he was a person of flesh and bones upon his resurrection--not a
spirit--he even said so plainly. Also, Mary Magdalene tried to embrace
him, which he would not allow. If he had been a spirit, she would not
have been able to see him in the first place.
We are not primarily bodies with a spirit, we are primarily a spirit
with a body. Jesus said, destroy this temple, and I will rebuild
it in three days. He was referring to the temple of his spirit--his
body. But primarily, all persons are spirits, just clothed with flesh
and bones. So, it is appropriate to refer to us as
spirits--and to God as a spirit, as well. When I looked for a
wife, I wanted one who was a "kindred spirit." She has a body, but
calling her a spirit is just a manner of speaking.
BoM says God is a Spirit
Alma 22:10 And Aaron said
unto him: Yea, he is that Great Spirit, and he acreated all things both in
heaven and in earth. Believest thou this? Blaine: you have to take
this in the context of the entire story--it is a story about a Nephite learned
in the ways of God (Aaron) talking with an ignorant Lamanite king, who
referrred to God as the "Great Spirit." Aaron was more or less trying to
speak the same language, so as to be understood by the king, and so used the
same wording.
Alma 31:15 we believe that thou
art God, and we believe that thou art holy, and that thou wast a spirit, and
that thou art a spirit, and that thou wilt be a spirit forever. Blaine: The above words were spoken
by some Zoramites, who were apostates from the Nephite religion,as they stood
in a tower in the center of their synagogue. Again, you have to read the
story to understand the context. This was actually an example of what
was NOT the doctrine being taught by the true believers, the
Nephites.
God is INVISIBLE (spirits are invisible)
1 Tim
1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be
honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. Blaine: He
is always invisible, whether in the body or no, unless he wants to appear
visibly. Moses saw him standing with his back to him, before he had
taken a body--God was a spirit at that time (Prior to being born in the
flesh). But even as a spirit, Moses saw him--spirits can be seen
under the right conditions. In the Pearl of Great Price, Moses saw God
as a glorified spirit, and could not look upon him without being
transfigured. But he could see Satan (also a spirit)with his natural
eyes. Also, in the Book of Ether, it is recorded that the Brother of
Jared saw the spirit body of Jesus Christ, around the time of the Tower of
Babel. This is very explicit.
It says: "Behold, this body which you now behold,
is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my
spirit. And even as I appear unto thee in the spirit, will I appear unto
my people in the flesh." (Ether 3:16)
Heb 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of
the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible
Col 1:15 Who is
the image of the invisible God
John 1:18 No ma! n hath seen God at any
time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath
declared him.
Jesus DECLARED him Jn 1:18 (not "shown" as in a
body)
How did He declare him?
1) MESSAGE Jn 12:49 For I have
not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment,
what I should say, and what I should speak.
2) WORKS Jn 5:19 The Son can
do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever
he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Blaine: Jesus also said, "If
you have seen me, you have seen the Father."
God says He
is NOT A MAN
Hos 11:9 I am God, and not man
Neither is he a
son of a man! Blaine: exactly--he was not a
common man, or a son of a man, but the Son of God--an exceptional
man!!!
Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; Blaine: The Son of God does not lie like ordinary men
do. He was sinless, is all this
means.
neither the son of man, that he should repent
Blaine: The Son of God does not need to
repent--he never sinned. This says nothing about his form.
Paul says God is not a man
Rm 1:23 And
changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to
corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
(God is not in the image of m! an! Except in the eyes of fools Rm
1:22)Blaine: This is not at all how it reads--it
says, "And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like
unto a corrubtible man, . . . who worshipped the creature more than the
creator . . . " This is talking about evil men whose evil
imaginations imagined God to be a corruptible man like
themselves.
God created man not procreated sons
& daughters. If he had hands they would be very large!
Is
45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have
stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. Blaine: He was speaking figuratively, not
literally!! Kevin, are you really that literal minded?
God CREATED not organized the earth and the HEAVENS He
is God of ALL the planets!
IS 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that
created the heavens: SO? Jesus created the heavens and the earth, and all that is
therein, but it was done under the auspices or WILL of the Father. See
below. The will of the Son and the will of the Father are the same--they
are one God.
There is ONLY ONE God
Is 45:18
I am the LORD; and there is none else
IS 44:8 Is there a God beside me?
yea, there is no God; I know not any. (therefore he could not have a father or
grandfather god)
Duet 6:4 "The Lord our God is ONE Lord
Is 43:10 that
ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was
no God formed, neither shall there be after me. (God has the positon filled NO
VACANCY, you are not a god in embryo you are a sinner) If
kittens become cats, and puppies become dogs, what do children of God
become? But of course Jesus Christ will always be our God, and the
Father his God, and our God too, since the Son does the will of the
Father--Jesus was seen standing at his right hand, by the way--explain
that?
James ! 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou
doest well ( you are not doing well)
1 Co 8:4 there is none other God but
one
IS 44:6 I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no
God.
IS 46:9 I am God(Elohim, a plural word, don't
forget), and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like
me--The father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are one
God, and therefore are used in the singular here.
IS 45:5 I am
the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee,
though thou hast not known me
Blaine: Who did Jesus pray
to on numerous occasions? He constantly talked about the father, and
doing the will of the father. The father's voice was heard when Jesus
was being Baptized. Numerous--innumerable--other instances speak of the
father and Jesus separately. John saw Jesus standing on the right hand
of the father. I could go on infinitely almost.
Jesus created
the heavens and the earth, but did so as a subordinate of the father. He
was so much like the father, he even referred to himself as if he was the
father. As he said, "My father and I are one." When he spoke, he
spoke as the authorized representative of the father, so spoke as if he was
the father, since they were one. Whatever is done, is done of the father, but by Jesus
Christ--see below for further explication.
BoM
says there is ONLY ONE (Quantity not Quality) God
Alma 11:28-29
Now Zeezrom said: Is there MORE than one God? And he answered, No. There is one God--The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost--which
is one God.
God does not PROGRESS or
CHANGE
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not
James 1:17 no
variableness, neither shadow of turning
Ps 102:26-27 They shall perish,
but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a
vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou art the
same, and thy years shall have no end.
True
James Talmage says: "Jes! us Christ was Jehovah...Jesus
Christ, who is the Jehovah of the Old Testament. In all of scripture, where
God is mentioned and where he has appeared, it was Jehovah...The Father has
never dealt with man directly and personally since the fall" (Doctrines of
Salvation, vol.1, p.11,27). True Jesus has done
the will of the father since the beginning of the creation.
This
would preclude the use of these Old testament verses to prove Elohim has a
body. Trying to cite a verse about jehovah to prove a point about Elohim is
Faulty Logic. Jesus (Jehovah) first appeared to man as a
spirit, as I have indicated above.
In contrast, the Bible uses the
names Elohim and Jehovah interchangeably for the ONE true God. The word
"Jehovah" is translated "LORD" in the KJV. The words "Jehovah" and "Elohim"
are used together hundreds of times, as in: 'LORD our God', 'LORD my God',
'LORD his God', 'LORD your God'. For example: "The Lord [Jehovah] our God
[Elohim] is ONE Lord [Jehovah]" (Deut. 6:4). Rephased "Jehovah our Elohim is
ONE Jehovah" See also Gen. 2:4-22; Deut. 4:1; Judges 5:3; 1 Sam. 2:30; Is.
44:6. Elohim is the plural of
El. You will have to sort it out, but that is the bottom
line.
Is 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in ! the
wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a
highway for our God.
This is a prophecy of Jesus Christ see Mt 3:3 Luke
3:4 John 1:23 The word "God" is Elohim. This presents an unsolvable problem
for LDS theology. This ENTIRE verse is in reference to Jesus, it calls Jesus -
Elohim! There is no problem at all that I even
see--Elohim is a Hebrew word, a plural word, the plural of El. It means
"the Gods." Jehovah is the chief of the Gods, except for the Father, who
is also sometimes referred to as Elohim--meaning the chief of all the Gods,
who are, besides the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. These three are
one God, and are when put together, Elohim--the Gods--as it states several
times in the Book of Mormon. For further clarification, see: 1 Cor 8:6, which says, "But to us there is but one god, the Father, of whom are all things, and
we in Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we in
him."
Notice here the difference between
"of" referring to the Father, and "by", referring to Jesus Christ. All things are
of the father, but are by Jesus Christ. The Father is therefore the
instigator, whose will is done in heaven, but Jesus Christ is the doer,
or implementer. Jesus implements the will of the Father, as he did when
he created all things. But we are (or can be) in the Son, as the
Son is in the Father. This simply means we must be one with Jesus Christ
as he is one with the Father. We will therefore all be
one. Otherwise, we are not His.
Prepare
ye the way of Jehovah, make straight in the desert a higway for our
Elohim! Blaine: Does this make sense to you,
considering Elohim is plural??? It means, make straight the way of the
Son, and the Father, and the Holy Ghost--one God. One does not operate
independantly of the other--they are the same in all instances. Whatever
Jehovah does, it is the will of the Father, and the Holy Ghost too, since they
are all in accord with one another at all times. They are one God.
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