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Blaine: Is this your best shot Kevin--a put
down? If you can't handle the truth, at least be a gentleman and admit
it.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 9:15
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Nothing to
respond to or not able?
There you go a perfect picture of LDS Kindergarten
Theology.... Blaine Borrowman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 5:21
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Nothing to
respond to or not able?
Blaine Today is the 6th of
March, and I just got to your post, Kevin--I haven't heretofore seen
anything worth responding to that I did not respond to, but if I do,
I will do the best I can to answer it in the amount of time I allow
myself each day for TT. NEVER jump to conclusions, and as
Terry (?) said, be careful, we will have to account for every idle
word we utter--or write, even if only on TT where anything
goes!! (:>)
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Maybe you missed
this:
No comment? taking the
fifth?
Holy Bible says God is a SPIRIT
JN 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him
must worship him in spirit and in truth.
A spirit does not have flesh
and bones (Luke 24:39)
Blaine: Yeah, I know
this passage, but it is to be understood in connection with all the rest
of the passages dealing with God--for instance, Jesus, said, "handle me
and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have."
It is obvious from this he was a person of flesh and bones upon his
resurrection--not a spirit--he even said so plainly. Also, Mary
Magdalene tried to embrace him, which he would not allow. If he had
been a spirit, she would not have been able to see him in the first
place. We are not primarily bodies with a spirit, we
are primarily a spirit with a body. Jesus said, destroy this
temple, and I will rebuild it in three days. He was referring to the
! temple of his spirit--his body. But primarily, all persons are
spirits, just clothed with flesh and bones. So, it is
appropriate to refer to us as spirits--and to God as a spirit, as
well. When I looked for a wife, I wanted one who was a
"kindred spirit." She has a body, but calling her a spirit is just a
manner of speaking.
BoM says God is a Spirit
Alma 22:10 And Aaron
said unto him: Yea, he is that Great Spirit, and he acreated all things
both in heaven and in earth. Believest thou this?
Blaine:
you have to take this in the context of the entire story--it is a story
about a Nephite learned in the ways of God (Aaron) talking with an
ignorant Lamanite king, who referrred to God as the "Great Spirit."
Aaron was more or less trying to speak the same language, so as to be
understood by the king, and so used the same wording.
Alma 31:15 we believe that
thou art God, and we believe that thou art holy, and that thou wast a
spirit, and that thou art a spirit, and that thou wilt be a spirit
forever. Blaine: The above
words were spoken by some Zoramites, who were apostates from the Nephite
religion,as they stood in a tower in the center of their synagogue.
Again, you have to read the story to understand the context. This
was actually an example of what was NOT the doctrine being taught by the
true believers, the Nephites.
God is INVISIBLE (spirits are invisible)
1 Tim
1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be
honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. Blaine:
He is always invisible, whether in the body or no, unless he wants to
appear visibly. Moses saw him standing with his back to him, before
he had taken a body--God was a spirit at that time (Prior to
being born in the flesh). But even as a spirit, Moses saw
him--spirits can be seen under the right conditions. In the Pearl of
Great Price, Moses saw God as a glorified spirit, and could not look
upon him without being transfigured. But he could see Satan (also a
spirit)with his natural eyes. Also, in the Book of Ether, it is
recorded that the Brother of Jared saw the spirit body of Jesus Christ,
around the time of the Tower of Babel. This is very explicit.
It says: "Behold, this body which you now
behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of
my spirit. And even as I appear unto thee in the spirit, will I
appear unto my people in the flesh." (Ether 3:16)
Heb 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath
of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible
Col 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God
John 1:18 No ma! n hath seen God
at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father,
he hath declared him.
Jesus DECLARED him Jn 1:18 (not
"shown" as in a body)
How did He declare him?
1) MESSAGE
Jn 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he
gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
2)
WORKS Jn 5:19 The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the
Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son
likewise.
Blaine: Jesus also said,
"If you have seen me, you have seen the Father."
God
says He is NOT A MAN
Hos 11:9 I am God, and not man
Neither is he a son of a man! Blaine:
exactly--he was not a common man, or a son of a man, but the Son of
God--an exceptional man!!!
Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; Blaine: The Son of God does not lie like ordinary men
do. He was sinless, is all this
means.
neither the son of man, that he should repent
Blaine: The Son of God does not need to
repent--he never sinned. This says nothing about his form.
Paul says God is not a man
Rm 1:23 And
changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to
corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
(God is not in the image of m! an! Except in the eyes of fools Rm
1:22)Blaine: This is not at all how it reads--it
says, "And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made
like unto a corrubtible man, . . . who worshipped the creature more than
the creator . . . " This is talking about evil men whose evil
imaginations imagined God to be a corruptible man like
themselves.
God created man not procreated
sons & daughters. If he had hands they would be very large!
Is 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I,
ev! en my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I
commanded. Blaine: He was speaking figuratively,
not literally!! Kevin, are you really that literal minded?
God CREATED not organized the earth and the HEAVENS
He is God of ALL the planets!
IS 45:18 For thus saith the
LORD that created the heavens: SO? Jesus created the
heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, but it was done under the
auspices or WILL of the Father. See below. The will of the Son
and the will of the Father are the same--they are one
God.
There is ONLY ONE God
Is 45:18 I
am the LORD; and there is none else
IS 44:8 Is there a God beside me?
yea, there is no God; I know not any. (therefore he could not have a
father or grandfather god)
Duet 6:4 "The Lord our God is ONE Lord
Is 43:10 that ye may know a! nd believe me, and understand that I am
he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
(God has the positon filled NO VACANCY, you are not a god in embryo you
are a sinner) If kittens become cats, and puppies
become dogs, what do children of God become? But of course Jesus
Christ will always be our God, and the Father his God, and our God too,
since the Son does the will of the Father--Jesus was seen standing at his
right hand, by the way--explain that?
James ! 2:19 Thou
believest that there is one God; thou doest well ( you are not doing well)
1 Co 8:4 there is none other God but one
IS 44:6 I am the first,
and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
IS 46:9 I am
God(Elohim, a plural word, don't forget), and
there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me--The father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are one God, and
therefore are used ! in the singular here.
IS 45:5 I am
the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded
thee, though thou hast not known me
Blaine: Who did Jesus
pray to on numerous occasions? He constantly talked about the
father, and doing the will of the father. The father's voice was
heard when Jesus was being Baptized. Numerous--innumerable--other
instances speak of the father and Jesus separately. John saw Jesus
standing on the right hand of the father. I could go on infinitely
almost.
Jesus
created the heavens and the earth, but did so as a subordinate of the
father. He was so much like the father, he even referred to himself
as if he was the father. As he said, "My father and I are
one." When he spoke, he spoke as the authorized representative of
the father, so spoke as if he was the father, since they were one.
Whatever is done, is done of the father, but
by Jesus Christ--see below for further
explication.
BoM
says there is ONLY ONE (Quantity not Quality) God
Alma
11:28-29 Now Zeezrom said: Is there MORE than one God? And he answered,
No. There is one God--The Father, the Son, and
the Holy Ghost--which is one God.
God does not PROGRESS or
CHANGE
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not
James 1:17
no variableness, neither shadow of turning
Ps 102:26-27 They shall
perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a
garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end. True
James Talmage says: "Jes! us Christ
was Jehovah...Jesus Christ, who is the Jehovah of the Old Testament. In
all of scripture, where God is mentioned and where he has appeared, it was
Jehovah...The Father has never dealt with man directly and personally
since the fall" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol.1, p.11,27). True Jesus has done the will of the father since the
beginning of the creation.
This would preclude the use of these
Old testament verses to prove Elohim has a body. Trying to cit! e a verse
about jehovah to prove a point about Elohim is Faulty Logic. Jesus (Jehovah) first appeared to man as a spirit, as I have
indicated above.
In contrast, the Bible uses the names Elohim
and Jehovah interchangeably for the ONE true God. The word "Jehovah" is
translated "LORD" in the KJV. The words "Jehovah" and "Elohim" are used
together hundreds of times, as in: 'LORD our God', 'LORD my God', 'LORD
his God', 'LORD your God'. For example: "The Lord [Jehovah] our God
[Elohim] is ONE Lord [Jehovah]" (Deut. 6:4). Rephased "Jehovah our Elohim
is ONE Jehovah" See also Gen. 2:4-22; Deut. 4:1; Judges 5:3; 1 Sam. 2:30;
Is. 44:6. Elohim is the plural of
El. You will have to sort it out, but that is the bottom
line.
Is 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in ! the
wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a
highway for our God.
This is a prophecy of Jesus Chris! t see Mt 3:3
Luke 3:4 John 1:23 The word "God" is Elohim. This presents an unsolvable
problem for LDS theology. This ENTIRE verse is in reference to Jesus, it
calls Jesus - Elohim! There is no problem
at all that I even see--Elohim is a Hebrew word, a plural word, the plural
of El. It means "the Gods." Jehovah is the chief of the Gods,
except for the Father, who is also sometimes referred to as
Elohim--meaning the chief of all the Gods, who are, besides the Father,
the Son and the Holy Ghost. These three are one God, and are when
put together, Elohim--the Gods--as it states several times in the Book of
Mormon. For further clarification, see: 1 Cor
8:6, which says, "But to us there is
but one god, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and
one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we in
him."
Notice here the difference
between "of" referring to the Father, and
"by", referring to Jesus Christ. All
things are of the father, but
are by Jesus Christ. The Father is
therefore the instigator, whose will is done in heaven, but Jesus
Christ is the doer, or implementer. Jesus implements the will of
the Father, as he did when he created all things. But we are (or can
be) in the Son, as the Son is in the Father. This simply means
we must be one with Jesus Christ as he is one with the Father. We
will therefore all be one. Otherwise, we are not His.
Prepare ye the way of Jehovah, make
straight in the desert a higway for our Elohim! Blaine: Does this make sense to you, considering
Elohim is plural??? It means, make straight the way of the Son, and
the Father, and the Holy Ghost--one God. One does not operate
independantly of the other--they are the same in all instances.
Whatever Jehovah does, it is the will of the Father, and the Holy Ghost
too, since they are all in accord with one another at all times.
They are one God.
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