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Lance wrote > I believe
our Triune God (Father, Son, Spirit) is a relational God. I believe that His
Being is in Communion. I believe that we are made in God's image. I believe that
our being is in communion. I believe that introspection is the least effective
means of knowing ourselves. I believe this "love" to be imperfect and
progressive in us but perfect and complete in Him.
Well put, Lance. I like it when you go ahead and
express yourself. You're always able, it seems, to shed new light on a
discussion. More, more, please write more! Thanks,
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 5:53
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christian
Perfection
"You must love the Lord your God with all your
heart, all your soul, and all your mind. This is the first and greatest
commandment.A second is equally important. "Love your neighbor as
yourself."All the other commandments and all the demands of the prophets are
based on these two commandments." I believe our Triune God (Father, Son,
Spirit) is a relational God. I believe tha tHis Being is in Communion. I
believe that we are made in God's image. I believe that our being is in
communion. I believe that introspection is the least effective means of
knowing ourselves. I believe this "love" to be imperfectand progressive in us
but perfect and complete in Him. Just musing. Lance
----- Original Message -----
Sent: April 10, 2004 06:34
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christian
Perfection
Very few of us have come to a belief on this
issue simply through the reading of the "text". Would BT & DM tell us
the process by/through which they came to hold this view? Lance
----- Original Message -----
Sent: April 10, 2004 06:12
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christian
Perfection
A professor of theology said of a colleague
who had just completed a commentary on the book of Matthew, "Does anyone
here think that this will be the last..(of its kind)? Language is a blunt
instrument. BT and DM are providing us with a commentary on 1
John. Each reads this book on this issue differently. I'd be
interested to hear the questions in the minds and hearts of others on this
site . They've both made an impressive case for their respective
understandings of Christian Perfection and I'm confident that they could
and, perhaps will, supplement their arguments. Long ago I attended a
Creation vs Evolution debate. At its conclusion we were asked to vote on
who won the debate not on who we believed was right. I found myself
giving the nod to the person with whom I disagreed. If any here do not
possess either the debate skills or the facility in Greek how then might
they determine not "who's winning" but what the Scriptures as a whole tell
us. God knows, of course. May we? I for one would appreciate comments
& questions from all participants. I firmly believe that the "heart of
God" may be known on this matter. Lance
Sent: April 09, 2004 22:40
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christian
Perfection
David writes >
Furthermore, your rendering of the 1 John 5:18 passage mangles the
Greek. I know that you understand Greek, so please read the Greek
text here. You have rendered "pas ho" as "the One," seemingly
ignoring the word "pas" which means "all." The first part of verse
18 should read, "We know that everyone who has been born of God sins
not," yet you translate it as, ""We know most assuredly that the One who
has been born from (Gk. ex = out of or from) God does not sin."
Surely you can see that you do not do properly handle the Greek phrase
"pas ho." I would very much like to see you either justify your
handling the Greek this way, or acknowledge your mistake. I'm not
jabbing at you. I wish you could see my demeanor. I truly
desire to see some serious consideration and explanation. We are
just talking here, so let's not get our feathers ruffled. We are
learning together.
Actually, David, I did not render pas
ho as "the One"; instead I rendered ho
gegennamenos as "the One who has been born." The word
ho is the definite article nominative masculine singular; the
word gegennamenos is a participle. This particular
participle is a perfect passive nominative masculine singular. In order
to carry the perfect passive across into English I translated it as "has
been born." The KJV fails to convey the perfect passive in v.18a;
instead it conveys a present active. In 18b the participle
gennatheis is an aorist passive nominative masculine singular.
In order to carry the aorist passive across into English I translated it
as "was born"; again the KJV fails to convey a proper aorist passive
meaning; instead it conveys a perfect passive. To get to the nominative
masculine singular I translated the first participle as "the One who"
with the masculine emphasis coming through in the rendering of the
second participle as "He who."
Oidamen is a first person plural
perfect active indicative. It carries the idea of seeing or perceiving,
which is closely related to knowing or comprehending, and so I
translated this verb as "We know"; I could have equally
accurately translated it as "We perceive."
Pas is used here with an
elative significance, modifying oidamen and denoting the
highest degree; it should therefore be translated in a way which conveys
the idea of all, full, supreme, greatest, or most. In
this instance pas elevates
the idea of knowing to a status of certainty; hence "We know with
all assurance" or "We know full well" or "We know with great confidence"
or "We know most assuredly."
David, I hope this will be helpful. I'll
leave the rest of your comments to bear their own weight for the time
being.
Thanks,
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 10:16
AM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christian
Perfection
> Bill wrote:
> > The question, as I see
it, if we are to understand this
> > verse, is this: Who is it
that keeps you from the wicked
> > one? Does this verse teach
us that you keep yourself from
> > the wicked one?
>
> ...
> > We only get into trouble with this passage when we
assume
> > something about ourselves that is only true of our
Savior.
> > Jesus Christ is the one who is without sin; he is
the one
> > who has power over the evil one; he is the one who
keeps us.
> > We understand this and know that it is
true.
>
> We are agreed on this. He is the one who
keeps us. We have no power to
> live holy without the Spirit
of Christ living through us and doing it by
> the power of the
Holy Spirit. Not to agree with this would cause one to
>
fall into the error of Pelagianism.
>
> Bill wrote:
>
> Did Peter keep himself from the evil one? Was he
> > able
to do that? No. Peter needed to learn from
> > where his
strength would come.
>
> This is true, but I also want to
point out that this happened before
> Peter was baptized in the
Holy Spirit. This does not mean that someone
> immersed in
the Holy Spirit is unable to do the same sin, but I think
> that
when one is baptized in the Holy Spirit, he receives an inner
power
> that helps him tremendously in these situations.
>
> Bill wrote:
> > What is the Gnostic connection to this
passage,
> > verse 18 in particular? ... Cerinthus, if indeed
> > it was Cerinthus, and his followers had rejected
>
> Christ. Hence they were not of God; they were of
> > the
world (see cf. 4.3-5).
>
> I agree that Cerinthus was of
this world and not of God, but so were
> other Jews and other
false prophets. I'm not sure the Gnostic
> connection is all
that necessary to understand the passage. We could
> easily
consider those who reject Christ in our time, especially
>
religious false prophets of our time, who are not called Gnostics
and
> the application of the passage seems to ring just as
true.
>
> Bill wrote:
> > I see this entire verse
as referring to the "Son of God,"
> > Jesus Christ: "We know
most assuredly that the One who has
> > been born from (Gk. ex
= out of or from) God does not sin;
> > but He who was born
from God keeps himself, and the evil
> > one does not touch
him."
> > ...
> > It is Jesus Christ who is the one
without sin, who does
> > not sin and who keeps himself from
the wicked one. They
> > are not of Christ; they are not under
his protection;
> > they are not kept by him. But by inference
Christians
> > are kept by him. John speaks confidently of
those who
> > have the Son: "We know that we are from God ...
And we
> > know that the Son of God has come and has given us
an
> > understanding, that we may know him who is true; and we
> > are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This
> > is the true God and eternal life."
>
> What
does it mean when you say, "we are in him"? Does that mean that
we
> keep on living as we did when we were outside of him?
That is the
> question, and then that question becomes, do we sin
less and less as we
> grow, or do we just stop sinning and grow
from that position of
> holiness? In my perspective, to stop
sinning is not the end goal. That
> is the beginning.
The end goal is to do the works that Christ did, and
> even
greater works.
>
> With regards to the 1 John 5:18 passage,
I do not see the necessity of
> insisting that Jesus Christ is THE
ONE who is specifically meant by the
> word WHOSOEVER in this
passage. It seems to me that other parts of the
> epistle
clearly indicate that we as believers are born of God.
Consider
> 1 John 5:1,
>
> Whosoever believeth that
Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every
> one that loveth
him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
> (1 John
5:1 KJV)
>
> Clearly, this verse 18 must be read in the
context of this verse, which
> indicates that we too have power to
become a son of God by believing
> upon Jesus Christ. Other
verses in 1 John indicate this to be true for
> the believer who
has the life of Christ within him. For example:
>
>
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
(1
> John 2:3 KJV)
>
> He that saith he abideth in
him ought himself also so to walk, even as
> he walked. (1 John
2:6 KJV)
>
> Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
for his seed remaineth in
> him: and he cannot sin, because he is
born of God. IN THIS THE CHILDREN
> OF GOD ARE MANIFEST, and the
children of the devil: whosoever doeth not
> righteousness is not
of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (1
> John 3:9-10
KJV)
>
> Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have
boldness in the day of
> judgment: BECAUSE AS HE IS, SO ARE WE IN
THIS WORLD. (1 John 4:17 KJV)
>
> Furthermore, your
rendering of the 1 John 5:18 passage mangles the
> Greek. I
know that you understand Greek, so please read the Greek text
>
here. You have rendered "pas ho" as "the One," seemingly ignoring
the
> word "pas" which means "all." The first part of verse
18 should read,
> "We know that everyone who has been born of God
sins not," yet you
> translate it as, ""We know most assuredly
that the One who has been born
> from (Gk. ex = out of or from)
God does not sin." Surely you can see
> that you do not do
properly handle the Greek phrase "pas ho." I would
> very
much like to see you either justify your handling the Greek this
>
way, or acknowledge your mistake. I'm not jabbing at you. I
wish you
> could see my demeanor. I truly desire to see some
serious consideration
> and explanation. We are just talking
here, so let's not get our
> feathers ruffled. We are
learning together.
>
> Peace be with you.
> David
Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.
>
> ----------
>
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org
>
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