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Very few of us have come to a belief on this issue
simply through the reading of the "text". Would BT & DM tell us the process
by/through which they came to hold this view? Lance
----- Original Message -----
Sent: April 10, 2004 06:12
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christian
Perfection
A professor of theology said of a colleague who
had just completed a commentary on the book of Matthew, "Does anyone here
think that this will be the last..(of its kind)? Language is a blunt
instrument. BT and DM are providing us with a commentary on 1
John. Each reads this book on this issue differently. I'd be interested
to hear the questions in the minds and hearts of others on this site . They've
both made an impressive case for their respective understandings of Christian
Perfection and I'm confident that they could and, perhaps will, supplement
their arguments. Long ago I attended a Creation vs Evolution debate. At
its conclusion we were asked to vote on who won the debate not on who we
believed was right. I found myself giving the nod to the person with whom I
disagreed. If any here do not possess either the debate skills or the facility
in Greek how then might they determine not "who's winning" but what the
Scriptures as a whole tell us. God knows, of course. May we? I for one
would appreciate comments & questions from all participants. I firmly
believe that the "heart of God" may be known on this matter.
Lance
Sent: April 09, 2004 22:40
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christian
Perfection
David writes >
Furthermore, your rendering of the 1 John 5:18 passage mangles the
Greek. I know that you understand Greek, so please read the Greek text
here. You have rendered "pas ho" as "the One," seemingly ignoring the
word "pas" which means "all." The first part of verse 18 should read,
"We know that everyone who has been born of God sins not," yet you translate
it as, ""We know most assuredly that the One who has been born from (Gk. ex
= out of or from) God does not sin." Surely you can see that you do
not do properly handle the Greek phrase "pas ho." I would very much
like to see you either justify your handling the Greek this way, or
acknowledge your mistake. I'm not jabbing at you. I wish you
could see my demeanor. I truly desire to see some serious
consideration and explanation. We are just talking here, so let's not
get our feathers ruffled. We are learning together.
Actually, David, I did not render pas
ho as "the One"; instead I rendered ho gegennamenos as
"the One who has been born." The word ho is the definite article
nominative masculine singular; the word gegennamenos is a
participle. This particular participle is a perfect passive nominative
masculine singular. In order to carry the perfect passive across into
English I translated it as "has been born." The KJV fails to convey the
perfect passive in v.18a; instead it conveys a present active. In 18b the
participle gennatheis is an aorist passive nominative masculine
singular. In order to carry the aorist passive across into English I
translated it as "was born"; again the KJV fails to convey a proper aorist
passive meaning; instead it conveys a perfect passive. To get to the
nominative masculine singular I translated the first participle as "the One
who" with the masculine emphasis coming through in the rendering of the
second participle as "He who."
Oidamen is a first person plural
perfect active indicative. It carries the idea of seeing or perceiving,
which is closely related to knowing or comprehending, and so I
translated this verb as "We know"; I could have equally accurately
translated it as "We perceive."
Pas is used here with an elative
significance, modifying oidamen and denoting the highest
degree; it should therefore be translated in a way which conveys the idea of
all, full, supreme, greatest, or most. In this
instance pas elevates the idea
of knowing to a status of certainty; hence "We know with all assurance"
or "We know full well" or "We know with great confidence" or "We know most
assuredly."
David, I hope this will be helpful. I'll leave
the rest of your comments to bear their own weight for the time being.
Thanks,
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 10:16
AM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christian
Perfection
> Bill wrote:
> > The question, as I see it, if we are to
understand this
> > verse, is this: Who is it that keeps you from
the wicked
> > one? Does this verse teach us that you keep
yourself from
> > the wicked one?
> > ...
> >
We only get into trouble with this passage when we assume
> >
something about ourselves that is only true of our Savior.
> >
Jesus Christ is the one who is without sin; he is the one
> > who
has power over the evil one; he is the one who keeps us.
> > We
understand this and know that it is true.
>
> We are agreed on
this. He is the one who keeps us. We have no power to
>
live holy without the Spirit of Christ living through us and doing it
by
> the power of the Holy Spirit. Not to agree with this would
cause one to
> fall into the error of Pelagianism.
>
>
Bill wrote:
> > Did Peter keep himself from the evil one? Was he
> > able to do that? No. Peter needed to learn from
> >
where his strength would come.
>
> This is true, but I also
want to point out that this happened before
> Peter was baptized in
the Holy Spirit. This does not mean that someone
> immersed in
the Holy Spirit is unable to do the same sin, but I think
> that when
one is baptized in the Holy Spirit, he receives an inner power
> that
helps him tremendously in these situations.
>
> Bill
wrote:
> > What is the Gnostic connection to this passage,
>
> verse 18 in particular? ... Cerinthus, if indeed
> > it was
Cerinthus, and his followers had rejected
> > Christ. Hence they
were not of God; they were of
> > the world (see cf.
4.3-5).
>
> I agree that Cerinthus was of this world and not of
God, but so were
> other Jews and other false prophets. I'm not
sure the Gnostic
> connection is all that necessary to understand the
passage. We could
> easily consider those who reject Christ in
our time, especially
> religious false prophets of our time, who are
not called Gnostics and
> the application of the passage seems to ring
just as true.
>
> Bill wrote:
> > I see this entire
verse as referring to the "Son of God,"
> > Jesus Christ: "We know
most assuredly that the One who has
> > been born from (Gk. ex =
out of or from) God does not sin;
> > but He who was born from God
keeps himself, and the evil
> > one does not touch him."
>
> ...
> > It is Jesus Christ who is the one without sin, who
does
> > not sin and who keeps himself from the wicked one. They
> > are not of Christ; they are not under his protection;
>
> they are not kept by him. But by inference Christians
> > are
kept by him. John speaks confidently of those who
> > have the
Son: "We know that we are from God ... And we
> > know that the
Son of God has come and has given us an
> > understanding, that we
may know him who is true; and we
> > are in him who is true, in
his Son Jesus Christ. This
> > is the true God and eternal
life."
>
> What does it mean when you say, "we are in
him"? Does that mean that we
> keep on living as we did when we
were outside of him? That is the
> question, and then that
question becomes, do we sin less and less as we
> grow, or do we just
stop sinning and grow from that position of
> holiness? In my
perspective, to stop sinning is not the end goal. That
> is the
beginning. The end goal is to do the works that Christ did,
and
> even greater works.
>
> With regards to the 1 John
5:18 passage, I do not see the necessity of
> insisting that Jesus
Christ is THE ONE who is specifically meant by the
> word WHOSOEVER in
this passage. It seems to me that other parts of the
> epistle
clearly indicate that we as believers are born of God.
Consider
> 1 John 5:1,
>
> Whosoever believeth that Jesus
is the Christ is born of God: and every
> one that loveth him that
begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
> (1 John 5:1
KJV)
>
> Clearly, this verse 18 must be read in the context of
this verse, which
> indicates that we too have power to become a son
of God by believing
> upon Jesus Christ. Other verses in 1 John
indicate this to be true for
> the believer who has the life of Christ
within him. For example:
>
> And hereby we do know that
we know him, if we keep his commandments. (1
> John 2:3 KJV)
>
> He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even
as
> he walked. (1 John 2:6 KJV)
>
> Whosoever is born of
God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in
> him: and he
cannot sin, because he is born of God. IN THIS THE CHILDREN
> OF GOD
ARE MANIFEST, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not
>
righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
(1
> John 3:9-10 KJV)
>
> Herein is our love made
perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of
> judgment: BECAUSE
AS HE IS, SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD. (1 John 4:17 KJV)
>
>
Furthermore, your rendering of the 1 John 5:18 passage mangles the
>
Greek. I know that you understand Greek, so please read the Greek
text
> here. You have rendered "pas ho" as "the One," seemingly
ignoring the
> word "pas" which means "all." The first part of
verse 18 should read,
> "We know that everyone who has been born of
God sins not," yet you
> translate it as, ""We know most assuredly
that the One who has been born
> from (Gk. ex = out of or from) God
does not sin." Surely you can see
> that you do not do properly
handle the Greek phrase "pas ho." I would
> very much like to
see you either justify your handling the Greek this
> way, or
acknowledge your mistake. I'm not jabbing at you. I wish
you
> could see my demeanor. I truly desire to see some serious
consideration
> and explanation. We are just talking here, so
let's not get our
> feathers ruffled. We are learning
together.
>
> Peace be with you.
> David Miller, Beverly
Hills, Florida.
>
> ----------
> "Let your speech be
always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to
answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
>
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