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"You must love the Lord your God with all your
heart, all your soul, and all your mind. This is the first and greatest
commandment.A second is equally important. "Love your neighbor as yourself."All
the other commandments and all the demands of the prophets are based on these
two commandments." I believe our Triune God (Father, Son, Spirit) is a
relational God. I believe tha tHis Being is in Communion. I believe that we are
made in God's image. I believe that our being is in communion. I believe that
introspection is the least effective means of knowing ourselves. I believe this
"love" to be imperfectand progressive in us but perfect and complete in Him.
Just musing. Lance
----- Original Message -----
Sent: April 10, 2004 06:34
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christian
Perfection
Very few of us have come to a belief on this
issue simply through the reading of the "text". Would BT & DM tell us the
process by/through which they came to hold this view? Lance
----- Original Message -----
Sent: April 10, 2004 06:12
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christian
Perfection
A professor of theology said of a colleague who
had just completed a commentary on the book of Matthew, "Does anyone here
think that this will be the last..(of its kind)? Language is a blunt
instrument. BT and DM are providing us with a commentary on 1
John. Each reads this book on this issue differently. I'd be interested
to hear the questions in the minds and hearts of others on this site .
They've both made an impressive case for their respective understandings of
Christian Perfection and I'm confident that they could and, perhaps will,
supplement their arguments. Long ago I attended a Creation vs Evolution
debate. At its conclusion we were asked to vote on who won the debate not on
who we believed was right. I found myself giving the nod to the person
with whom I disagreed. If any here do not possess either the debate skills
or the facility in Greek how then might they determine not "who's winning"
but what the Scriptures as a whole tell us. God knows, of course. May
we? I for one would appreciate comments & questions from all
participants. I firmly believe that the "heart of God" may be known on this
matter. Lance
Sent: April 09, 2004 22:40
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christian
Perfection
David writes >
Furthermore, your rendering of the 1 John 5:18 passage mangles the
Greek. I know that you understand Greek, so please read the Greek
text here. You have rendered "pas ho" as "the One," seemingly
ignoring the word "pas" which means "all." The first part of verse
18 should read, "We know that everyone who has been born of God sins not,"
yet you translate it as, ""We know most assuredly that the One who has
been born from (Gk. ex = out of or from) God does not sin." Surely
you can see that you do not do properly handle the Greek phrase "pas
ho." I would very much like to see you either justify your handling
the Greek this way, or acknowledge your mistake. I'm not jabbing at
you. I wish you could see my demeanor. I truly desire to see
some serious consideration and explanation. We are just talking
here, so let's not get our feathers ruffled. We are learning
together.
Actually, David, I did not render pas
ho as "the One"; instead I rendered ho gegennamenos as
"the One who has been born." The word ho is the definite article
nominative masculine singular; the word gegennamenos is a
participle. This particular participle is a perfect passive
nominative masculine singular. In order to carry the perfect passive
across into English I translated it as "has been born." The KJV fails to
convey the perfect passive in v.18a; instead it conveys a present active.
In 18b the participle gennatheis is an aorist passive nominative
masculine singular. In order to carry the aorist passive across into
English I translated it as "was born"; again the KJV fails to convey a
proper aorist passive meaning; instead it conveys a perfect passive. To
get to the nominative masculine singular I translated the first participle
as "the One who" with the masculine emphasis coming through in the
rendering of the second participle as "He who."
Oidamen is a first person plural
perfect active indicative. It carries the idea of seeing or perceiving,
which is closely related to knowing or comprehending, and so I
translated this verb as "We know"; I could have equally
accurately translated it as "We perceive."
Pas is used here with an
elative significance, modifying oidamen and denoting the
highest degree; it should therefore be translated in a way which conveys
the idea of all, full, supreme, greatest, or most. In
this instance pas elevates
the idea of knowing to a status of certainty; hence "We know with all
assurance" or "We know full well" or "We know with great confidence" or
"We know most assuredly."
David, I hope this will be helpful. I'll
leave the rest of your comments to bear their own weight for the time
being.
Thanks,
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 10:16
AM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christian
Perfection
> Bill wrote:
> > The question, as I see it,
if we are to understand this
> > verse, is this: Who is it that
keeps you from the wicked
> > one? Does this verse teach us that
you keep yourself from
> > the wicked one?
> >
...
> > We only get into trouble with this passage when we assume
> > something about ourselves that is only true of our Savior.
> > Jesus Christ is the one who is without sin; he is the one
> > who has power over the evil one; he is the one who keeps us.
> > We understand this and know that it is true.
>
> We are agreed on this. He is the one who keeps us. We
have no power to
> live holy without the Spirit of Christ living
through us and doing it by
> the power of the Holy Spirit. Not
to agree with this would cause one to
> fall into the error of
Pelagianism.
>
> Bill wrote:
> > Did Peter keep
himself from the evil one? Was he
> > able to do that? No. Peter
needed to learn from
> > where his strength would come.
>
> This is true, but I also want to point out that this happened
before
> Peter was baptized in the Holy Spirit. This does not
mean that someone
> immersed in the Holy Spirit is unable to do the
same sin, but I think
> that when one is baptized in the Holy
Spirit, he receives an inner power
> that helps him tremendously in
these situations.
>
> Bill wrote:
> > What is the
Gnostic connection to this passage,
> > verse 18 in particular?
... Cerinthus, if indeed
> > it was Cerinthus, and his followers
had rejected
> > Christ. Hence they were not of God; they were
of
> > the world (see cf. 4.3-5).
>
> I agree that
Cerinthus was of this world and not of God, but so were
> other Jews
and other false prophets. I'm not sure the Gnostic
>
connection is all that necessary to understand the passage. We
could
> easily consider those who reject Christ in our time,
especially
> religious false prophets of our time, who are not
called Gnostics and
> the application of the passage seems to ring
just as true.
>
> Bill wrote:
> > I see this entire
verse as referring to the "Son of God,"
> > Jesus Christ: "We
know most assuredly that the One who has
> > been born from (Gk.
ex = out of or from) God does not sin;
> > but He who was born
from God keeps himself, and the evil
> > one does not touch
him."
> > ...
> > It is Jesus Christ who is the one
without sin, who does
> > not sin and who keeps himself from the
wicked one. They
> > are not of Christ; they are not under his
protection;
> > they are not kept by him. But by inference
Christians
> > are kept by him. John speaks confidently of those
who
> > have the Son: "We know that we are from God ... And we
> > know that the Son of God has come and has given us an
> > understanding, that we may know him who is true; and we
> > are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This
> > is the true God and eternal life."
>
> What
does it mean when you say, "we are in him"? Does that mean that
we
> keep on living as we did when we were outside of him?
That is the
> question, and then that question becomes, do we sin
less and less as we
> grow, or do we just stop sinning and grow from
that position of
> holiness? In my perspective, to stop
sinning is not the end goal. That
> is the beginning.
The end goal is to do the works that Christ did, and
> even greater
works.
>
> With regards to the 1 John 5:18 passage, I do not
see the necessity of
> insisting that Jesus Christ is THE ONE who is
specifically meant by the
> word WHOSOEVER in this passage. It
seems to me that other parts of the
> epistle clearly indicate that
we as believers are born of God. Consider
> 1 John
5:1,
>
> Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born
of God: and every
> one that loveth him that begat loveth him also
that is begotten of him.
> (1 John 5:1 KJV)
>
>
Clearly, this verse 18 must be read in the context of this verse,
which
> indicates that we too have power to become a son of God by
believing
> upon Jesus Christ. Other verses in 1 John indicate
this to be true for
> the believer who has the life of Christ within
him. For example:
>
> And hereby we do know that we
know him, if we keep his commandments. (1
> John 2:3 KJV)
>
> He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk,
even as
> he walked. (1 John 2:6 KJV)
>
> Whosoever is
born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in
> him:
and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. IN THIS THE CHILDREN
>
OF GOD ARE MANIFEST, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth
not
> righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his
brother. (1
> John 3:9-10 KJV)
>
> Herein is our love
made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of
> judgment:
BECAUSE AS HE IS, SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD. (1 John 4:17 KJV)
>
> Furthermore, your rendering of the 1 John 5:18 passage mangles
the
> Greek. I know that you understand Greek, so please read
the Greek text
> here. You have rendered "pas ho" as "the
One," seemingly ignoring the
> word "pas" which means "all."
The first part of verse 18 should read,
> "We know that everyone who
has been born of God sins not," yet you
> translate it as, ""We know
most assuredly that the One who has been born
> from (Gk. ex = out
of or from) God does not sin." Surely you can see
> that you
do not do properly handle the Greek phrase "pas ho." I would
>
very much like to see you either justify your handling the Greek
this
> way, or acknowledge your mistake. I'm not jabbing at
you. I wish you
> could see my demeanor. I truly desire
to see some serious consideration
> and explanation. We are
just talking here, so let's not get our
> feathers ruffled. We
are learning together.
>
> Peace be with you.
> David
Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.
>
> ----------
> "Let
your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
>
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