----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 6:24
AM
Subject: [TruthTalk] Calvinism
Bill, Lance and all:
I believe I am understanding a little more about what
is going on here (some of us are slow) and what you are up to is not all
that different from what U2 are doing. You approach God's Word through a
certain mindset or tradition which ironically is what you have been accusing
me of doing.
BT: We all approach God's word through a certain mindset, through the
tradition(s) of our life. How many times have I said we all bring something
with us to the text? What I am advocating is twofold: 1. be honest enough to
admit that; and 2. prayerfully seek to read past that mindset to God's
Word.
Torrance, Polanyi et al's stated mission in life is
to try and integrate natural science with Judeo-Christian theology which
is similar to what Thomas Aquinas was involved with when he tried to
blend scripture and the wisdom of Aristotle (which is like trying to
blend oil and water). The RCC made Aquinas a Dr. of their Church which
promptly slid right on into the dark ages. Have we learned
nothing?
I note that some of you are locked into Torrances
revelation of the incarnation his relational theory. Why follow him when
we have the Words of the Creator of the Universe which are Spirit and Life
along with His Spirit who indwells us and leads us into all
truth.
Why must the two (Torrance's incarnational view and the Words of the
Creator) be mutually exclusive? Is there even a possibility that your
mindset and tradition(s) prevent you from seeing the connection? Again, Judy,
I appreciate your concern. I really do believe you care about us.
I have nothing against any of the Sciences -
they are fine in their place but God has redeemed us so that we can be
oracles for Him in this earth and He is Spirit. There should be a
division between those who serve Him and those who are oracles for the
adversary and any so called discipline where the regenerate and
unregenerate are seeing and saying the same thing is not from Him and is
against the teaching of His Word.
"Keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding
profance and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called
which some professing have erred concerning the faith."
Grace be with thee, judyt
David writes to Jonathan
> I agree that the passage is speaking about something undone
for all men in Christ. Just as Adam condemned all of mankind and
brought the prospect of death to us all, so Jesus Christ undid all of that
and presented all of mankind with a gift that would result in
the justification of life. However, as you have agreed in other
posts, this does not mean that all men are automatically afforded this
gift, but rather it is apprehended by those who would put their trust and
faith in Christ. ... So I accept your point that Christ died for
all, and that his gift is for all, but that does not mean that all have
received the gift of life that is found in Christ. The real thrust
of these passages is that Christ undid all that Adam had
done.
To the contrary, David, I believe this
passage does mean that all receive the gift of life and that this gift is
automatically afforded to us all whether or not we put our trust and faith in
Christ. The Scriptures speak of two deaths. The first death is defeated in
Christ's resurrection. We all share in the victory of Christ's victory over
sin, death, and the devil. "For the love of Christ compels us, because we
judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all,
that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died
for them and rose again" (IICor 5.14-15). We all live because Christ is
the justification of life. The first death is therefore not the
problem. We all share in Christ's resurrection. We are all called to live
this life in faithful obedience to him who gave it to us.
How then does this view differ from
"universalism"? Keep in mind the second death. Before considering it, however,
let us talk about those among us who die in infancy or childhood or early
adulthood (?) before having placed their faith in Jesus Christ. I have to tell
you, David, this speaks to the one thing which disturbs me more than anything
else: Christians who make faith a necessary prerequisite to salvation are
really quite inconsiderate. Either they are noncommittal and thus have no
words of comfort for those who have suffered the worst imaginable loss, or
they hold to some sort of second, unspoken gospel which does not
include their prerequisite, or they themselves hold out no hope for children
who die without faith. Whatever the case, it is terribly sick and sad. There
is good news for those who have lost a child, and that good news is imbedded
in the Gospel and that Gospel is right here in these passages.
The question is, do these young ones go to hell
when they die, and this because they failed to believe in Jesus Christ? I say
absolutely not. They are secure in Christ and we can be sure of
that. Their security is absolute. They are eternally secure and this
is because it is not faith which saves them -- or anyone else.
Therefore, a lack of faith cannot send them to hell. Jesus Christ saves
period! -- not faith, not repentance, not baptism, not sanctification,
not works: Jesus Christ alone. And he saves these little ones. His faith,
his repentance, his baptism, his sanctification, his works, his vicarious
nature: He saves us all. The passages under discussion -- Rom 5.12ff and IICor
5.14-21 -- make that abundantly clear. These young ones are secure in Christ
and we can know that, because they have done nothing to reject
him. And there's the key. The first death, their death, is
swallowed up in victory. Resurrection to eternal life is theirs in
Christ.
It is the "second death" that damns people to
hell. Those who suffer the second death are those who lose their salvation,
the very salvation provided them in and through Christ's life, death, and
resurrection. These are those who volitionally reject Jesus Christ.
These are those who trample under foot the Son of God and regard as
unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was
sanctified. They insult the Spirit of grace. They blaspheme the Holy
Spirit. They commit the sin which leads to
death, the unpardonable sin. Because in their rejection of Christ
they deny the Lord who redeemed them, bringing
swift destruction upon themselves. These are those who do not
overcome. It is not then just the absence of faith which sends people to
hell, it is the outright rejection of Jesus Christ that damns them.
NKJ Revelation 2:11 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the
Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second
death."
NKJ Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part
in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they
shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand
years.
NKJ Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the
lake of fire. This is the second death.
NKJ Revelation 21:6-8 And He said to me, "It is done! I am
the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the
fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes
shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My
son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually
immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake
which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 9:01
PM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk]
Calvinism
> Jonathan wrote:
> > The passage makes no sense if 'many'
is not 'all'
> > which is why some translations use 'all' instead
> > of 'many'. Please give us your exegesis on this
>
> passage on how the many when referring to Adam is
> > all of
us, and how the many when referring to Christ
> > is just some of
us. If you get the chance please
> > show me other
commentators that would hold this
> > same viewpoint.
>
> Let's look at the passage:
>
> Rom 5:17 For if by
one man's offence death reigned by one; much more
> they which receive
abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness
> shall reign in
life by one, Jesus Christ.)
> Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the
offence of one judgment came upon all men
> to condemnation; even so by
the righteousness of one the free gift came
> upon all men unto
justification of life.
> Rom 5:19 For as by one man's
disobedience many were made sinners, so by
> the obedience of one shall
many be made righteous.
>
> I think the real verse that makes
your point is verse 18 not 19. It
> says that by the righteousness
of one the free gift came upon all men
> unto justification of
life.
>
> I don't have a problem with the word "all" in
this passage. However,
> there is a context, and I think the
passage you quoted was highly
> suggestive of universalism, which you
have clarified as being something
> that you do not believe.
>
> I agree that the passage is speaking about something undone for all
men
> in Christ. Just as Adam condemned all of mankind and brought
the
> prospect of death to us all, so Jesus Christ undid all of that
and
> presented all of mankind with a gift that would result in
the
> justification of life. However, as you have agreed in other
posts, this
> does not mean that all men are automatically afforded this
gift, but
> rather it is apprehended by those who would put their trust
and faith in
> Christ.
>
> So I accept your point that
Christ died for all, and that his gift is
> for all, but that does not
mean that all have received the gift of life
> that is found in
Christ. The real thrust of these passages is that
> Christ undid
all that Adam had done.
>
> Jonathan wrote:
> > Another
verse you will want to consider is
> > 1 Corinthians 15:22: (KJV)
> > 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ
> > shall all be made alive. Here the King James
> >
Version uses the word 'all' and the concept of
> > from death to
life. Would we now say that in
> > Adam all died but only a
few will be made alive
> > in Christ?
>
> We would say
that those in Christ are ALL MADE ALIVE. The problem is
> that not
all are in Christ. Only some will be made alive, a few,
> because
only some trust in Christ and are thereby found IN HIM.
>
>
Peace be with you.
> David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.
>
> ----------
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned
with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man."
(Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
>
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