David writes > However, Torrance does tend to go further and were it not for Bill's comments here in this forum, I'm not sure I would have grasped how far he was going with this.
David, I am not nearly as good a communicator as I need to be under these circumstances. I am finding that I have thought these things for a very long time but am having great difficulty putting my thoughts into words. I would like to encourage you not to get discouraged with me. I will try to do my best to explain myself and my understanding of Torrance. I would like to also encourage Lance and Jonathan to jump in at every point that they think I have not communicated fairly, and accurately, and clearly Torrance's positions. By the way, Lance, did you ever get a copy of this book to John? I am sure he would like to get involved in this too. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 8:40 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ > Lance wrote: > > In your own words WHAT DOES TFT MEAN when > > speaking of THE VICARIOUS LIFE AND DEATH > > OF THE MEDIATOR? > > Torrance points out the importance of not looking at the work of Christ > as merely external representation. Jesus Christ was not just the leader > of humanity to represent us before God. Rather, we must merge with the > idea of representation the idea of substitution, thereby understanding > the Incarnation as Jesus being fully human, and thereby able to act in > our stead, as a human being, doing that which none of us were able to > do. When we comprehend his humanity in this way, we better understand > his vicarious life and death as mediator, because he truly was acting > out of the ontological depths of his being. So in the Incarnation, God > comes to us as man, and thereby reconciles us to God through that > humanity. > > I have no problem with this perspective, as it parallels my own > perspective for the last 20 years. However, Torrance does tend to go > further and were it not for Bill's comments here in this forum, I'm not > sure I would have grasped how far he was going with this. > > One thing Torrance says concerning this vicarious work of Christ is in > how he views Christ's baptism, as a baptism of vicarious repentance for > us. My initial reaction to this is to ask, "so then if Christ was > baptized unto repentance vicariously for us, does that mean that none of > us need to be baptized unto repentance?" Also, "if Christ repented for > us, and if he believed for us, then does that mean we do not need to > repent and do not need to believe"? I know that you guys believe in > both repentance and faith, so I must reconcile this by speculating that > what you are really saying is that when we do repent and when we do have > faith, it comes not from our own selves, but it is a manifestation of > the operation of Christ within us. That sounds just fine... I have > always looked at all goodness within me as coming from Christ and that > without God, there can be no good. However, you seem to suggest that > all of this is natural and applies to all men upon their being born into > this world, whereas I see that our faith in the gospel as being makes > this work of Christ a reality in our lives. I see one of the > difficulties that Jesus faced with men was their lack of faith. He was > always rebuking their unbelief and hardness of heart. Maybe I just need > to chew on this some more and it will sink in. :-) > > Peace be with you. > David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. > > ---------- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. > > ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
