Hi Bill. I'm not sure there is much to disagree with your response, but yet it does seem to me that our grasp of this issue is not identical. Perhaps that will become more clear as our discussion progresses.
When I read Torrance, I come away with a different perspective than you do, but that is surely because I bring with me baggage from a different background so that I perceive his terms and illustrations in a different manner. At times it seems that our difference is a semantic one, but then other times it seems like it is much more than that. For the time being, I want to focus on semantics a little and get a better grasp of the terms and understanding of terms that you use. Bill Taylor wrote: > Another thing to keep in mind when reading Torrance > is this: we are ontologically in Christ from birth > via the go'el aspect of the atonement; but the gift > of the Holy Spirit is received at the point of trusting > in Jesus Christ. Sometimes this is referred to as > repentance, sometimes as belief, sometimes as faith, > sometimes as conversion. So in the theology of Torrance, repentance, belief, faith, and conversion are all the same thing, or is there some distinction made between these terms? Your characterization of the Anabaptist position toward Baptism did not seem accurate to me. I think they were attempting to restore much of the reality of what Torrance teaches, turning away from dead rituals that have only an external form, but rather than distract from Torrance and discuss that, I'm going to ignore that for now. I will say that I agree with Torrance's view of the sacraments, and have for a very long time. The difficulties arise in how he seems to want to marry certain tenets of Reformed theology with his correct view of the Atonement and Incarnation. This gets especially problematic when we consider how we should preach the gospel to sinners. Eventually, we will be discussing these things, but for now, let's get back to semantics and agree upon terms and definitions. Bill Taylor wrote: > The Gospel, then, calls for conversion, a fundamental > change of mind, a radical departure from our former > way of life. In other words, to believe the Gospel > is to convert. BUT "conversion" is not what saves us. > To convert is simply to align ourselves with the truth > and reality of him who does save us: Jesus Christ. I can agree with what you say here, as I preach the gospel in this fashion, declaring the good news, and persuading men to repent of their sin and obey the gospel. Something still seems odd here, perhaps in your phrase, "conversion is not what saves us." I don't think I have ever taught that conversion saves us, or even thought of it that way. Yet, you seem compelled to raise this point and I'm not sure why. I still have problems with the idea that everyone is born into Christ at physical birth. Torrance himself says on page 67, "That 'great mystery', as St. Paul described it, of the union between Christ and his Church is primarily and essentially corporate in nature, but it applies to all individual members of his Body WHO ARE INGRAFTED INTO CHRIST BY BAPTISM and continue to live in union with him as they feed upon his body and blood in Holy Communion." Here he says that they are ingrafted into Christ by baptism. How do we reconcile that with the idea of being born into Christ at physical birth BEFORE baptism? Maybe part of my problem is understanding how someone can be IN Christ and yet not be in relationship with Christ. For me, that would be like Jesus saying that he and the Father are one, yet they are not in relationship with one another. Impossible. To be IN CHRIST surely means to be in relationship with Christ, does it not? You seem to be saying that everyone is already in Christ but don't realize it, and so when they realize it, then they are putting faith in Christ and they experience the reality of what has always been. This sounds like you are saying that the relationship was always there but not recognized and experienced? ?? Maybe you can help me understand you better, because I clearly do not seem to be understanding you. Again, my perspective regarding the Incarnation and the Atonement is very much the same, as a work already done and accomplished, but I see faith as the umbilical cord that ties us to that work and causes us to experience it. In other words, from my perspective, physical birth has absolutely nothing to do with being in Christ, but faith in Christ does. Once we connect with Christ through faith, then we experience the Incarnation and Atonement of which Torrance speaks as we are IN CHRIST and Christ is IN US. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
