From: "Slade Henson" <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I
need to clean this up a bit because it's getting confusing. I will erase some
stuff and write my comments in red.
jt: Hope I don't confuse things further by changing
it back to 'plain text' but I will contrast colors.
What is "He came to His own and His own received Him
not" (John 1:11) saying? and then John goes on to say "But as many
as received Him, TO THEM He gave THE POWER TO BECOME children of God
[....] who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the
will of man, but of God." (His disciples must be born of God or born again).
Why would verse 7-10 speak of the WORLD, verse 11 speak of JEWS, and
verse 12-13 speak of the WORLD? Doesn't it make sense to keep the flow
flowing?
jt: It would make sense to me but that is not how the
scriptures read, going back and forth in this manner is also apparent in the
writings of Isaiah and some of the other prophets.... Luke 23.27; "there were following him a great multitude of the
people" does not necessarily mean they were all His disciples.
It also doesn't mean that they weren't. You certainly wouldn't have
people weeping for someone they want to see dead.
jt: Luke says specifically that it was the women who
were mourning and weeping (in another place Jesus called them the daughters of
Jerusalem and he told them they should be weeping for themselves rather than
for Him).... The judgment seat at the place called the pavement is where
Pilate tried to exonerate Him and the crowd cried "crucify Him, crucify Him"
So there was no loyalty to Him there.
It's easy to filter a crowd and only allow 45 to 200 people supporters if
you have an agenda. Also, the passages seems to indicate that coercion was
occurring in the crowd by the leaders of the Sadducees.
jt: I can agree here because Peter was not
wanting to be recognized as one of Jesus' followers after he (Jesus) was
arrested. 3,000 souls were added by Peter's sermon and after
Pentecost when His disciples received power from on high the number of
disciples increased but this is after the crucifixion.
Thank you for agreeing that there was not a national
rejection.
jt: The scriptures teach that He was "rejected by His
own" and "wounded in the house of his friends" Romans Chapter 11 addresses
Israel's rejection ATST stating that it was not total and will not be final.
I answered this above. However there's a bit more. Why is that any
different than Gentile rejection?
jt: The main difference is that Jesus is the root and
Israel is the Olive Tree that God spent so many years cultivating and he was
expecting some return (fruit). Read the
parables of the Vineyard and the Fig Tree. Gentiles are the wild tree
that is grafted in.
For some reason, non-Jews see individual Jewish rejection as so much
greater a crime. Perhaps it is since their forefathers were given the oracles
of God and should have known better, but there is a partial veil given as well
-- a veil fertilized by Non-Jewish persecution of the Jewish people.
jt: It's no greater crime than what the gentiles who
call themselves believers are doing right now themselves. The main problem
with Israel was unbelief - they really didn't believe deep down that God meant
what he said and they kept tweaking Him until He was forced to either judge
them or deny His own Word.
It's really hard for the average Jewish person to accept a Messiah whose
followers have killed and trampled the Jewish people for nearly 1,700 years.
If I can understand the difficulty, surely God understands and loves them in
spite of the difficulty. If I can understand why a Jewish man can be angry at
God for allowing the Holocaust.. God understands as well.
jt: He may understand but He must let them stew in
it. Being angry with God over the Holocaust is futility. We reap
what we ourselves have sown by our choices and those of our ancestors. (cf.
Genesis 18:32) Sodom and Gomorrah were still destroyed, it was just
delayed; this is an example of Abraham's intercession and what it means to be
a friend of God. I don't see how it ties in to Israel's rejection of Christ as
their Messiah. As a Nation they are still looking and they are still
saying to each other: "Next year in Jerusalem"
You completely missed the point of the passage. Ten righteous men DID NOT
EXIST IN SODOM -- that's why it was destroyed.
jt: How do you know it was destroyed right away and
that Abraham's intercession did not win a reprieve of more time for that
wicked city? Apparently Lot was a righteous man - we are told his
righteous soul was vexed by their filthy way of life.
I've read that Matthew is the one gospel that was
written primarily for a Jewish audience. A good example of how the Holy Spirit
communicates is that of Peter's sermon in Acts 2. People were in
Jerusalem from all over Europe and Asia to celebrate the Passover and when
Peter spoke they all heard him and understood in whatever language they spoke.
I don't believe this was a one time phenomenon. One does not have to be
Jewish or Greek to have understanding that comes from God by way of the Holy
Spirit.
The were in Jerusalem to celebrate Shavuot (Pentecost). The only ones in
the House (the Temple) were Jewish people, Israelis, and proselytes. The
different languages spoken here are the languages of the lands of the
Diaspora. You're right that understanding comes from the Holy Spirit, but not
exclusive of study, hard work, and sitting at the feet of Godly and learned
men and women as some would teach. 1 Peter 3.15 (seen in action in Acts 18:22
ff, Acts 8:34-35); Philippians 1:7; Acts 6:8-10; Isaiah 1:18; Jude 3; Titus
1:9.
jt: In Acts 8:34,35 for instance Philip preached
Jesus to the eunuch and he received the Truth and was baptized.
The New Covenant promise however, is that we receive
the Spirit of Promise which is an anointing that dwells in us and we need that
no man teach us. Note the minimal instructions the Council at Jerusalem
sent to new converts.
I think Matthew was written for a more Gentile audience because of
Matthew's parenthetical breaks that are used to explain standard Jewish life
in the Second Commonwealth. This would be common knowledge for a Jewish
audience.
None other than the fact that the Levitical system of
offerings was more than 400 years into the future and there is no record of
any other offering but that of sin. When A&E sinned God killed an
animal because without the shedding of blood there is no remission. It's
the pagan gods to take offerings of fruit and vegetables.
You are working in the assumption that your translation accurately
represents the Hebrew text, and I showed that it does not. Cain did not offer
fruits and vegetables. It was not a pagan thing. Another thing to consider...
what other god do you think Cain was offering sacrifices to? He's the first
progeny of humanity!
jt: Cain may be the first progeny but the head of all
false religion had already been given access to his parents and at this point
was influencing him. Whether it was vegetables or fruit the produce of
the ground can never atone for sin. We are told in Hebrews 11:4 that "By
faith" Abel's sacrifice was better and it was accepted (by fire from
heaven)and because of this Cain became both jealous and angry; I'd say that
this is a good forerunner of today's Islam.......As for the Torah my belief is
that the blessings and curses of Deuteronomy which would be considered part of
God's Commandments and Statutes still stand but that the Levitical Law was
nailed to the Cross. Romans 10:4 tells us that Christ is the end of the
law... (ATST we are still responsible to fulfill the "Royal Law" in Him).
Yeshua said, "Do not suppose that I came to throw down the law (Torah) or
the prophets (the rest of the Old Testament)--I did not come to throw down,
but to fill it full; for, verily I say to you, till that the heaven and the
earth may pass away, one iota or one tittle may not pass away from the law,
till that all may come to pass. Whoever therefore may loose one of these
commands--the least--and may teach men so, least he shall be called in the
reign of the heavens, but whoever may do and may teach them, he shall be
called great in the reign of the heavens." It's my understanding that this
includes each and every commandment in the Bible.
jt: Jesus fulfilled God's law and we are also to
fulfill the law through or by Him. It is now called the Royal Law or
LOVE which fulfills both law and prophets; this is a clear New Testament
teaching.
Therefore, whenever I am told NOT TO KEEP this or that commandment and
I'm given a New Testament passage to "prove" the point, I look closely at the
context of the whole passage, chapter, or book and determine exactly what's
going on. I study hard in order to make nothing of God's Word void and of
non-effect.
jt: Sounds like a good practice to me.
For instance, Galatians seem to indicate that circumcision is superceded
by baptism, internal circumcision, or circumcision of the heart (depending on
who is speaking). However, Galatians is written after the Jerusalem council of
Acts 15 and is specifically addressed to those who "seek to be justified by
the Law." For those who believe that salvation is not complete until
circumcision is administered, the circumcision avails your NOTHING. However,
that does not mean that circumcision itself, if done orderly and lawfully, is
nothing. It is still a sign of the covenant of God's people. Is that not
something God's people should want? A sign of that covenant carved into our
skin? I'm reminded of God's covenant every time I relieve myself. It's a
wonderful, beautiful thing. Had I been circumcised to complete salvation, it
would actually be "uncircumcision." It would be "works-based salvation."
jt: It seems we disagree on this point although I
believe physical circumcision is a good thing and better for the health of
both the man and the married woman. We had our son circumcised - and I
understand that it did begin with Abraham. However, Paul seems to be
saying that it is not physical circumcision that avails under the New Covenant
in Christ but circumcision of the heart.
And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, "You
see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have
believed; they are all zealous for the law...?" (Acts 21:20)
jt: If you keep reading in this chapter Slade you
will see that James and the elders in Jerusalem were advising Paul to do
whatever he needed to so that there was peace with the Jews and they then go
on to say in Vs.25 "But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written
and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should
keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things
strangled, and from sexual immorality."
Thank you, Judy, for this conversation... Even when we disagree. --
slade
jt: I appreciate it Slade; your sincerity and zeal for God's Word is a
real encouragement. The Lord will bring it all together for us so that
'in that day' we will not have these problems. Grace and Peace to
you, Judyt
