Re: [TruthTalk] God Hates

[Wm. Taylor]

Judy wrote: This concept is all through the Bible Bill, from Genesis on.  A&E died the day they ate from the forbidden tree but they did not die physically that day they died spiritually (Genesis 2:17) - (the serpent deceived Eve with an exact contradiction of the Word of God Genesis 3:4). There are two kinds of wisdom. The wisdom or Word of God brings life; the lie or wisdom from the father of lies produces spiritual death in a person's life.  Life and death are spiritual conditions that lead to eternal life or eternal death.  The mouth speaks from the abundance that fills the heart so both are evident by the power of the tongue (Proverbs 18:21) and we are speaking one or the other continually ie: 'A man shall be satisfied with good by the fruit of his mouth (Proverbs 12:14).  By your words you are either justified or condemned (Matthew 12:37). An evil man is snared by the transgression of his lips (Proverbs 12:13). The one holding the power of death is the devil (Hebrews 2:14) and Jesus told the apostle Paul he was "sending him to the Gentiles (us) to open their eyes and to turn them from darkness to light and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in Me"   Perhaps you misunderstood my request, Judy.  The challenge to you was to provide for me explicit language; that is, show me in Scripture where the text uses the language of "spiritual death" or "spiritually dead" or "died spiritually," something like that, that could substantiate your claim. I am familiar with the Text. I don't think it's there.   Here's what I think about Genesis and the promise that on the day they eat of it they shall surely die. There was death that day. There was also the introduction of the Gospel. Instead of pulling his life-support from Adam and Woman God sacrificed a substitute. He covered them in the fatty portions of a lamb, the Lamb slain from the beginning. In doing this, he sealed on that day the vicarious death of his Son, in their place and on their behalf.   And so, as you see, one does not need to interpose a foreign concept into the text to make it make sense.   Yours is an a priori, Judy. You have heard this language so many times, for so long, that it is now a given in your reading of Scripture. You supply it, in other words, but the words themselves are not their. It is something you bring with you to your reading of the text, just as you did when you wrote "let the (spiritually) dead bury their own dead."   The challenge is still open. . .   Judy wrote: I've never ever read Augustine, Greek or any other philosophy, or religious Manichaeism Bill, neither do I approve of any type of Calvinism.   Neither did you need to to have your thinking influenced by these guys. All you needed to do was breath. The rest is supplied by people around you, when you go to church, for example, or when you went to school, or when you turn on your radio or television, or fire up your computer. Lance shared a really neat quote about how the philosophies of the mountain top flow down the streams to water the plants in the valley. We get theology and philosophy whether we seek it out or not. In many ways people are more susceptible and vulnerable to bad thinking when they eschew these things than they would be if they were to educate themselves to their subtleties. Maybe Lance could post this parable again to refresh your memory.   jt: I see the juxtaposition between darkness and light, life and death, good and evil all through scripture   Ah yes, and so do I.   jt: and I have no idea what you are speaking of when you refer to "holistic personhood" - could you explain further please?   I am talking about the thought that a person could be physically alive but spiritually dead. The Hebrew mind did not have the Greek idea that body and soul or spirit could be separated, parts being alive while others are dead. The Hebrew view of personhood is that humans are non-reducible wholes. There is no dualism there.   Judy wrote: How do you read Matt 8:21 and Luke 9:59,60?   I thought I had already answered that. This is a metaphor: "Let the dead bury their own dead," but you "follow me." Everything that people do that is given priority over following Jesus is as it were dead works. When we think we have something really important to do that is more important than what Jesus is commanding us to do, our acts are futile. Metaphorically speaking, they are as dead as the dead person awaiting burial. Again I ask you, why not let this first reference to "dead" be a metaphor for the futility of human activities when those activities are given status of priority over following Jesus?        Sincerely, Bill