Judy wrote: This concept is
all through the Bible Bill, from Genesis on. A&E died the day they
ate from the forbidden tree but they did not die physically that day they died
spiritually (Genesis 2:17) - (the serpent deceived Eve with an exact
contradiction of the Word of God Genesis 3:4). There are two kinds of
wisdom. The wisdom or Word of God brings life; the lie or wisdom from the
father of lies produces spiritual death in a person's life.
Life and death are spiritual conditions that lead to eternal
life or eternal death. The mouth speaks from the abundance that fills
the heart so both are evident by the power of the tongue (Proverbs 18:21)
and we are speaking one or the other continually ie: 'A man shall be
satisfied with good by the fruit of his mouth (Proverbs 12:14). By your
words you are either justified or condemned (Matthew 12:37). An evil man is
snared by the transgression of his lips (Proverbs 12:13). The one holding the
power of death is the devil (Hebrews 2:14) and Jesus told the apostle Paul he
was "sending him to the Gentiles (us) to open their eyes and to turn them
from darkness to light and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may
receive forgiveness of sins and inheritance among them which are sanctified by
faith that is in Me"
Perhaps you misunderstood my request,
Judy. The challenge to you was to provide for me explicit
language; that is, show me in Scripture where the text
uses the language of "spiritual death" or "spiritually dead" or "died
spiritually," something like that, that
could substantiate your claim. I am familiar with the Text. I don't
think it's there.
Here's what I think about Genesis and the
promise that on the day they eat of it they shall surely die. There was death
that day. There was also the introduction of the Gospel. Instead of pulling
his life-support from Adam and Woman God sacrificed a substitute. He covered
them in the fatty portions of a lamb, the Lamb slain from the
beginning. In doing this, he sealed on that day the vicarious death
of his Son, in their place and on their behalf.
And so, as you see, one does not need to
interpose a foreign concept into the text to make it make sense.
Yours is an a priori,
Judy. You have heard this language so many times, for so long, that it is
now a given in your reading of Scripture. You supply it, in
other words, but the words themselves are not their. It is something you bring
with you to your reading of the text, just as you did when you wrote "let the (spiritually) dead bury their own dead."
The challenge is still open. . .
Judy wrote: I've never ever
read Augustine, Greek or any other philosophy, or religious Manichaeism Bill,
neither do I approve of any type of Calvinism.
Neither did you need to to have your
thinking influenced by these guys. All you needed to do was breath. The
rest is supplied by people around you, when you go to church, for
example, or when you went to school, or when you turn on your radio or
television, or fire up your computer. Lance shared a really neat quote about
how the philosophies of the mountain top flow down the streams to water the
plants in the valley. We get theology and philosophy whether we seek it out or
not. In many ways people are more susceptible and vulnerable to bad thinking
when they eschew these things than they would be if they were to educate
themselves to their subtleties. Maybe Lance could post this parable again to
refresh your memory.
jt: I see the juxtaposition
between darkness and light, life and death, good and evil all through
scripture
Ah yes, and so do
I.
jt: and I have no idea what
you are speaking of when you refer to "holistic personhood" - could you
explain further please?
I am talking about the thought that a
person could be physically alive but spiritually dead. The Hebrew mind did not
have the Greek idea that body and soul or spirit could be separated, parts
being alive while others are dead. The Hebrew view of personhood is that
humans are non-reducible wholes. There is no dualism
there.
Judy wrote: How do you read
Matt 8:21 and Luke 9:59,60?
I thought I had already answered that.
This is a metaphor: "Let the dead bury their own dead," but you "follow
me." Everything that people do that is given priority over following Jesus is
as it were dead works. When we think we have something really important to do
that is more important than what Jesus is commanding us to do, our acts are
futile. Metaphorically speaking, they are as dead as the dead person awaiting
burial. Again I ask you, why not let this first reference to "dead" be a
metaphor for the futility of human activities when those activities
are given status of priority over following
Jesus?
Sincerely,
Bill
