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Bill,
I am encouraged that you were not discouraged by my comments, and that you
replied. J
It seems you are easily put-off sometimes.
Hi,
Izzy. I've read your post and will respond to the rest of it tomorrow PM
sometime. I just want to sort of set the record straight on your opening
statement. To you it may seem that I am easily put-off. To me it seems like it
takes something like the calling for a stoning to get me really riled. My
professors may not matter to you or some of the other TTers. To me they matter
very much. They are my mentors. I know them and know their heart for our Lord.
I've seen them weep in sorrow and in joy. I've seen them drop everything to
minister to broken hearts. I love them very much and I respect them. They are
honorable men. I know that they know that to stand up and call the church to
repent of its religiosity and return to the faith once delivered, will bring
upon them scorn from those for whom their hearts bleed. Yet when this
happens I am hurt; I am angered; I am offended. I put up with a lot from people
all the time, even here on TT. I try to let it run off my back. I am not so
willing to do that when people treat the ones I love with blatant disdain. Had
they sat under these same professors, they would know what I know -- and they
would not want to see them stoned.
Peace
to you, sister. I will be back tomorrow.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 9:05 PM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] God Hates
Bill,
I am encouraged that you were not discouraged by my comments, and that you
replied. J
It seems you are easily put-off sometimes. (Me also, I admit!) So may I make a
couple of further comments? How
about in blue this time?
Izzy
asks > Why is this so important to
you, Bill? Why is the idea that our salvation happened before we
believed it (vs the idea that salvation is provided but only occurs when one
receives it willingly by faith) of such paramount significance to you?Because it gives preeminence to Jesus Christ,
he whom the Bible calls our Lord and
Savior. Not to be disagreeable, but I DO give ALL preemincence to
Jesus.BT:
I'm sure you genuinely believe you do, Izzy. How much more preeminent would he
be if you would credit all of your salvation to him and did not credit any of
your salvation to your faithful response and obedient perseverance? You do
consider these to be conditions that you must meet in order for salvation to
be yours, don't you?
I
can only tell you what is in my heart, and you can choose to believe me or
not: JESUS gets ALL the credit for anything I do that is obedient or good, for
my ability to even understand and receive His grace, and certainly for HIS
saving grace by HIS Blood which has made everything possible. Do you think I am ignorant, or just
lying? I hope not.
Arminianism
is a nowhere road, Izzy. The only way it works is IF you are willing to
put believers alongside Jesus Christ and call them both
Saviors. The
requirements of faith and obedience do not make us co-redeemers. They are God�s requirements, not
Man�s. They are repeatedly
demanded by God throughout all of scripture. BT:
Those "requirements" do make you "co-redeemers" when you make your salvation
contingent upon their fulfillment. Yes, God makes commandments, but only after
or in the context of the indicatives of his grace. I once tried to show you
this and Judy so erupted that I finally dropped it.
I
agree that His grace comes first. Faith and obedience only show that I am HIS
obedient servant, who gratefully has received His grace.
To
insist otherwise is to make one�s theology preeminent over God�s
Word. BT:
It only places one's theology over God's word if it is false, Izzy. But if it
is true and you refuse to believe or even consider it, it is
disobedience.
So
how do we resolve which belief is false, except by loving exchanges like this;
to side by side think it through? We must do this, because we love each
other.
Historically
speaking -- since the Reformation, that is -- the other
evangelical alternative has been Calvinism. It at least upholds the absolute
agency of God in salvation and recognizes humanity as the helpless lot it is.
But I am not in favor of what it does to the character of God in the
process.I am excited about Trinitarian\Incarnational Theology
(thank
you for giving it a Name!) because
it gets beyond the never ending pitwars of Arminian v Calvinist
infighting. This is truly an exceptional theology. It is historically grounded
in the early church (not that that makes it true, but it does give it
precedence that places it in close proximity to NT times). It upholds the
Reformed tenet of sola
gracia, yet it does this without shifting blame toward
God for those who refuse to believe. At the same time it allows for full
participation in salvation, without making salvation an act of co-redemption.
I
appreciate your good motives in wanting this to be true. However to me it
seems a way of escape from responsibility for our sinful behavior; can you see
how it I might think that?
Bill
I am glad you are excited about something. You may think I�m an airhead
because such theological complexities don�t interest me. However to me such
endeavors only serve to put Theology above the Simplicity of believing and
accepting His Word without second-guessing, questioning, or out-maneuvering
HIS will. Whether or not people
argue about their theologies is not an issue for me, and causes me no loss of
sleep. I don�t need to resolve it. I don�t need to understand everything about
it. I just accept it �as a little child.� BT: I
don't get this one, Izzy. You ask me why I think this is so important and
when I answer you, you grab onto it and use it as an opportunity to
extol the higher virtues of ignorance. Sorry
to appear ignorant to you. Have you ever thought I might have chosen to have
differing priorities than you? Perhaps I think I understand, and therefore
spend my life acting on what I understand, rather than spending my life
continually seeking a better theology? Maybe
if you took a little more interest in your heritage you would appreciate the
hard work of your brothers and sisters who have. Don�t
misunderstand my appreciation for those who seek deeper walks with the
Lord. I simply stopped seeking a
new theology when I found my home in what I have found in Him. Do you fault me
for this? Should I continue seeking a new theology when I am not
discontent?
That
does not mean that I think I already know everything, which is why I am always
open to growth and discussion. In
the meantime, do not suppose that I don't accept it "as a little
child." The word for child means formable, impressionable, someone who
can be shaped and molded. I don't know, Izzy, it seems to me that most
Evangelicals, if they've been Christians very long, get pretty set in
their ways.I
agree. Sometimes it takes God to shake us out of our
complacency.
The
above mentioned teaching is of paramount significance because it lets love be
what it is: unconditional. That
is the problem with this Theology you have embraced. God�s love is not unconditional. It is
free for those who will receive it by meeting His conditions, because He paid
the price to make it possible. BT: God's love is unconditional, Izzy. God is
love. What "conditions" were there when all there was was the Father, Son, and
Holy Spirit? Did God change his nature when he created? Is the love he has for
us different than the love that he is in his being, the love that he shares
with his Son in the Holy Spirit? Are you the kind of mother who would say
"I'll love you if
and only
if you do your chores, and your homework, and eat all
your vegetables"? Assuming you're not, Do you think it would be wrong if you
were? I do. But from where does this right sense come if not from God? Why
should it be wrong for us to place conditions upon our love if this is how God
enacts his love for us?God's love is unconditional. He loved us
before we loved him. Did you get that? -- Does this not indicate that
he also loved us before we were meeting any of his
requirements?
Actually
love
MUST set conditions,
or it is not love. Did you not set conditions for your children, such as Don�t run out into the street, or you will get hurt? You
have conditions all of the time. God�s LOVE is not conditional. Our relationship
with Him is. He said it; I did
not. As a parent I hope you would be the same way. Would you allow your child to rob you,
beat up his Mom, and still live in your home? I hope not. God love is why He has conditions: because He does not want us to
hurt ourselves, others, or our relationship with Him. I hope my own
sons know that if they were to abandon their wives to run off with someone
else that their wives would be welcome in our home, but they would not until
they repented of their sin. Call me a big meanie,
but that is what I call love. It works only because they have had standards
ever since they were children. Today I don�t rule over them: I admire them.
But Jesus said we should count the cost
and gave a few conditions:, �Luke
14:26 If any man come to me, and
hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and
sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my
disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his
cross, and come after me, cannot be my
disciple.
28 For which of you, intending to
build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient
to finish it?BT:
Yes, Izzy, the Gospel calls for a radical departure from
life-as-we-used-to-live-it. Clarification:
a radical departure from sin, from rebellion, from disobedience, (as we used
to live it). But
it does not conditionally link this departure to Christ's
love. It
is His love on a cross that made it possible to live faithfully obedient to
Him! NOT our OWN goodness!
Here
you miss the vicarious nature of
Christ's mediation.Of
dear, more of those words that I don�t understand, that sound like
psychobabble to me: could you please spell out the meaning for (ignorant) old
me, please? J
His response is our response. He
takes our feeble efforts, glorifies them and presents them perfected to the
Father. I
don�t understand the vocabulary again. Are you saying He takes our sin and
makes it presentable to the Father? Surely not.
Please explain with scripture if you can. Knowing
this sets us free to be ever growing in his love. The yoke is easy and
the burden light, Izzy, because we are yoked to him and he is
carrying the load. Exactly!
Apart from His indwelling Spirit we cannot obey, we cannot resist sin, we cannot resist the selfish desires of the flesh! HE
makes it all easy, by faith in His redeeming Blood! The yoke is
broken!
At
the same time it calls us to unconditional obedience. In the words of James B.
Torrance (Thomas' younger brother, who died last year at 81) it distinguishes
between "legal repentance" and "evangelical repentance." Please consider his
words:
Legal
repentance says: �Repent, and if
you repent you will be forgiven,� as if God is persuaded into being merciful
by our acts of repentance.No,
God gave us these conditions. Jesus said in Luke 13:3 AND 13:5:
3 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will
all likewise perish. Here
our forgiveness is conditional upon our deeds of
obedience.
BT:
I guess I am missing your point, Izzy. How does this take away from what
I've said? The "repentance" to which Jesus is referring is a repentance from
their rejection of him. If anyone rejects Jesus Christ and the salvation he
provided, and then refuses from that moment on to repent, he or she will
certainly perish.Bill please
pay close attention to this: you just ignored how scripture completely
invalidated the statement (above) by JBT. Please explain how you can accept
BOTH statements; JBT�s alongside of
Jesus�?
Jesus
said our obedience is the �fruit� of repentance. Matt:3-9:Therefore bear
fruit in keeping with repentance. BT:
Did he now?
I just quoted JESUS; did He not???? Please answer this question, Bill,
please: did He not say �Therefore bear fruit in keeping with
repentance�?
Enough
for now, Bill. I hope I haven�t angered or
discouraged you. Please forgive
me for when I have. Sometimes
I�m not good at calculating the effects of my incredulity or curiosity, or
whatever. Izzy
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