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Hi Judy,
Thank you for your quick reply. I just want to make
sure I am understanding you correctly before I leave this topic alone. So
often on this forum I am guilty of jumping to conclusions about what others
think. Often I am only creating a parody of what they actually
believe. While it may lead to a few funny/angry posts it does tend to
hinder dialogue rather than contribute to it.
In your response you only referred to blessing/cursing in
the passage you quote from Galatians 3. Would it be safe for me to think
that you include the blessing/cursing of Deuteronomy within the concept/category
of moral law, and not in the category of Levitical law? If this is true,
would you be saying that while the Levitical law has been fulfilled in Jesus
Christ, moral law, which includes the concepts of blessing and cursing,
still affects us today?
A few other questions that would help me clarify your
position:
1) Would it be true that while only Christ could
fulfill the Levitical Law, all of us are capable of fulfilling the moral
law?
2) Does the same 'thing' that kept Israel from
fulfilling the Levitical law also keep us from fulfilling God's moral
law?
3) Does the same grace of God that enables us to
fulfill the Levitical law also enable us to fulfill God's moral
law?
4) In another post today there was a comment made
about the 'covering of grace'. While I do not believe that we are covered
by grace (rather we are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ), do you view grace
and law as two separate categories that are mutually exclusive? Or do you
believe that grace is present in the law?
If in any way I am mischaracterizing your thought here
please point it out.
Jonathan
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy
Taylor
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 11:51 AM
To:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613
Commands
Hi Judy, for once I am actually in agreement with
you here. But I am left confused. On one hand you point to Christ
as the fulfillment of the law, that we do not have the law plus
Jesus.
jt: I don't know if we are saying the same thing
Jonathan. He (Jesus) fulfilled the Levitical Law which Israel did not or
could not keep according to Stephen (Acts 7:43)
Jonathan: From past posts of yours which seemed to
place primacy on the law and types I would have thought you would be more
supportive of Suzy's position. It appears that I was wrong in thinking
this of you. What I am now trying to understand is why you still think
we are under the blessings and curses of Deuteronomy but not under the laws of
Deuteronomy.
jt: Jesus who overcame death and hell
by the 'eternal Spirit' introduced the Kingdom of God which is the
Spirit of the Law rather than the letter of the law which kills (not
gnostic). God's nature, character and standards,
have not ever changed. What is different in this equation is the believer in
Christ who is born anew by the Spirit of God, indwelled and instructed by
the same Spirit, and is given a heart of flesh along with the desire
to love and obey our Lord and Master. So ultimately it is God in Christ
who causes us to overcome.
Please understand that I am honestly attempting to
understand you here, not to mock you. I have no follow-up post to slam
you regardless of what your answer is. I am attempting to put together
why from my perspective there seems to be a disconnect. Basically, why
are the blessings and curses not fulfilled in Christ when the law was?
jt: The Levitical or
Ceremonial law is what Christ fulfilled but God's moral standard or moral law
still stands and this is what we are judged by in the Last Day.
Jesus became a curse for us as per (Galatians 3:13). I don't have
a problem with loving and obeying God according to His Word. What I have a
problem with is putting oneself under these 613 Commands because it
is written that "They which be of faith are blessed with faithful
Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for
it is written, cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are
written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the
law in the sight of God, it is evident; for, the just shall live by faith and
the law is not of faith; but the man that doeth them shall live in them."
(Galatians 3:9-12)
Can we separate them out so that one still applies?
Your answer may be that the law was a tutor to lead us to Christ but that the
blessings/curses have a different purpose and therefore are still in
effect.
jt: I personally love God's moral
law, commandments and statutes; actually Psalm 19:7-14 is probably my favorite
scripture or at least one of them; this and Matthew 6:33 are dear to
me. judyt
By the way I think that your 'two covenants/houses'
analogy is quite good.
Jonathan Hughes
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Judy Taylor
From: Susan Petersen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Adhering
to the Law of Moses to earn salvation is legalism and bondage. There is
nothing we can do to earn our salvation. Once again I say that we follow the
Law out of love for Jesus. If you love Me you will follow my commandments. And
there is no difference between God's commandments and Jesus' commandments.
jt: God's condition for salvation is the obedience
that comes through faith and Jesus did not give 613 Commands Suzy. The
law was given as a tutor or schoolmaster to show us the sinfulness of sin and
to lead us to Christ. It's not 613 Commands plus Jesus. There are two
houses or Covenants described in Hebrews 3:
"Therefore holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly
calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High
Priest of our confession. He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses
also was in all His house. For He has been counted worthy of more glory
than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house
has more honor than the house. For every house is built by
someone, but the builder of all things is God. Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a
testimony of those things which were to be spoken later; but Christ was
faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are
IF we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our
hope firm until the end" Judyt
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