Autonomy? Individualism? Both are celebrated in your 'documents'. Neither is compatible with the gospel. ----- Original Message ----- From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: December 04, 2004 15:06 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Trapped in the Flag
> I think the basic argument here is not whether the Founders were all perfect > Christians, but rather what was the intent of the Constitution and founding > documents regarding God and Christianity. I believe that anyone who has read > those documents w/o blinders on can see that they assumed that both were > necessary elements in the success of America. Izzy > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir > Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 6:08 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Trapped in the Flag > > For the time being just name the names of 'the signers of the Constitution > and the Declaration of Independence' IYO who both believed and lived the > gospel.I do not mean to suggest that there were none only, that I do not > know who they were. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: December 03, 2004 23:30 > Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Trapped in the Flag > > > > Lance wrote: > > > When many, if not all, on TT speak the name JESUS > > > we understand IMMANUEL/GOD WITH US. How > > > often did the 'founding fathers' actually speak His name? > > > When they spoke of Him will you illustrate, with citations > > > from their own writings, just what they meant? > > > > When we talk about the revolutionary war and the role of religion and > > religious beliefs, I don't think we can only consider "founding fathers." > > Sure, we can find quotes by some of the signers of the Constitution and > > Declaration of Independence that indicate a faith in Jesus. Some of them > > actually founded Bible societies, and I understand that Congress in 1777 > > used funds to appropriate 20,000 Bibles. But the real role of believers > is > > not unlike today. They were not so much in the spotlight, and those who > > were ranged from being like George Bush and Jimmy Carter to Richard Nixon > > and Bill Clinton. Not exactly shining stars of evangelical Christianity. > > > > I studied this years ago and so I don't have references ready for you > right > > now, but I came away with an understanding that about a third of the > people > > of this country favored the revolutionary war. About another third were > > against it. The final third were swayed one way or the other, and it was > > the activity of the pulpits that played a big role in getting many in that > > final third to support independence. For the most part these are not > > 'founding fathers' per se, but important influences in society. > > > > There are a some elements in our society that try to make even Thomas > > Jefferson and Ben Franklin evangelical Christians with quotes. This is > > ludicrous. Such quotes are selective and often isolated and not > considering > > the whole man and everything he wrote. In the same vein, there are some > > elements in our society that try to make it look like none of the founding > > fathers were Christian. These quotes also are very selective and taken > out > > of context and not accurately evaluating the whole person. The truth is > > that we had primarily secular men framing the Constitution who also > > recognized the value of Christianity. For example, while Thomas Jefferson > > was a Deist, he compiled his own diary of the teachings of Jesus Christ > and > > followed it closely much of his life. He considered himself a disciple of > > Jesus Christ even though he rejected the miracles of the Bible and he > > rejected the concept of the Deity of Jesus Christ. > > > > Now please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying that we can't come up > > with quotes for you from 'founding fathers' showing what they believed > about > > Jesus, but I think looking for quotes like this is a lot of work, and > > providing them does not give the whole picture. I'm going to be busy this > > weekend ministering at a men's prayer breakfast tomorrow morning, > preaching > > a parade route tomorrow evening, teaching Sunday School Sunday morning, > and > > ministering in a nursing home Sunday afternoon. Please don't expect me to > > do much homework for you in looking for these quotes. I'm not trying to > > snub you or be mean. I just have priorities in my life that make this > list > > a little low on the list. Please do not take it personal. > > > > I have to say that I have been disappointed in how some have taken my > posts > > way too personal. Such causes me to retreat if it appears to be chronic. > I > > apparently do not experience the frustration that some of you do in > > attempting to communicate and so I am a little slow in recognizing when > some > > have taken serious offense. I am considering a new rule for TruthTalk and > > will be talking with Slade about it because we certainly do not seem to be > > able to moderate ourselves. > > > > Peace be with you. > > David Miller. > > > > > > ---------- > > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may > know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > http://www.InnGlory.org > > > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a > friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. > > > ---------- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know > how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a > friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. > > > > ---------- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
