Re: [TruthTalk] The Right Way To Get To The Truth

[Judy Taylor]

 

 

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 13:46:34 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

                                THINK RED AND THE RAGING FLAMES OF HELL -  jd

 

jt: I have read the account of Samson's death.

Actually, you haven't.   I will quote the end of the story in the very near future.  You're going to be really disappointed. 

jt: Oh! So you have an end that is different from that of my Bible?

I love the way you think when you can't afford to be wrong.   Jacob's deception was justified because his mother made him do it and BESIDES, God was going to give him the birthright anyway.    

 

jt:  Long before this incident God's Word said that the elder would serve the younger and Esau had already married two heathen women. 

 

And Noah was tricked by his daughters  !!!?? Do you know how the sex thing works with men?    I have to be careful, here, but Noah OBVIOUSLY intentionally did what he did    ---------    please don't make me explain,  because I will persist until you get the point.  

jt: I don't care to know about the sex thing with men JD; but we need to back up. It was Lot who was seduced by the two

girls he raised in Sodom and Lot is not counted amongst the heroes of faith, in fact he only got out of both Ur and Sodom because of Abraham.

jt: They were not exactly "people of faith" when they were doing these things.  They were attempting to fulfil God's promise by way of the flesh. 

So, why did they continue their deceiption?   At what point did they "repent" as you seem to think one must do on every occasion of sin?   

 

jt: I'd say Jacob repented at Bethel when he struggled all night to lay hold of God. 

 

Romans 8:28 is at work in this story, to be sure.    God used this mistake, unrepented of and continued, for good.   He did not approve of it (no doubt)  but that was not the point of this part of the biblical record.   

 

jt: I disagree. Jacob did repent even so far as confronting his brother and he tried to make things right with him also. 

 

Among the various themes in the biblical record, the single most important is the thread that we know to be Christ through Abraham and into our lives.   Do not lose sight of my point :   people of faith and purpose often live in conflict with what they believe to be true.  

 

jt: I don't accept your point John because the scriptures themselves teach that doubleminded people are unstable in ALL their ways and they will receive "nothing" from the Lord. (James 1:8) It's not good to be doubleminded, or doubletongued either for that matter.

 

In fact,  often those who do the right things are NOT reponding to the call of God in their lives.   They are just playing house with the Lord. 

jt: Why do I need to keep looking for a beam JD? You've already delegated yourself as judge I'm not pointing any fingers.

On, contrare  --------   my dear.   I was reference Romans 2:1,2.   

jt: All of this talk of judgmentalism comes from that one question I asked Lance. So IYO asking Lance what the scriptures mean to him is being judgmental and means I have a beam?  Romans 2:1,2 speaks to judging others when you are doing the same things yourself and there is a lot of that going on here constantly.

 

By the way, Judy, it was a child of God, a member of the "people" of God who observed that our righteousness is as filthy rags.   That should mean something to you.  Does it???

jt:  Isaiah 64:6 is a prayer of prophetic intercession for his (Isaiah's) generation to which the Lord responds.

You focus on their victories and ignore the rest of the biblical record about each.  I will accept that they were just like us  --  and the focus ????????????  

jt: If I follow through your thought as stated above John then the focus would be on being sinful, halt, sick, and lame because this is where your focus has been under the Old Covenant.

Here, you have done what Linda has done  --   made a decision to misconstrue my stated belief.   "If I follow though on your thought  .........." you write above.   If that is not followed by   " ................  [focus] on God in Christ in us,"  your message is not an honest apprasial of my message.  

 

jt: I am comparing your stated belief with the truth of God's Word JD, can't get any more honest than that.

 

 Thank God for grace, right????

jt: We would disagree on the definition of grace also.  To me grace is the power to do as we ought. I'm assuming you believe that grace is a cover for sin, I know you will correct me if I misunderstand.   jht

Obviously, it needs to be on God in Christ.   

jt: If the focus is on God in Christ in Us, how can there be anything but victory? After all isn't the mystery of godliness "Christ in us, the hope of glory?"

I don't know.   Maybe we can learn something from those were viewed as "weak" in Romans 14, or those who were "babes" (and carnal) IN Christ, or the fact that we always have sin (I John 1:8), or truth of our failure in the words "keep on confessing,"  or Peter's problem his own Jewishness,  or Paul's attitude about JohnMark  (or was that Marks problem?), or that absolute fact that Spirit Presense does not produce Immediate Maturity, ful and complete,   or ................   you get the drift?  Our victory is a gifted consideration (hense, a fact) from God.  

Our righteous is a gifted consideration from God.   Our sanctification is a gifted consideration from God.  Our very salvation is a gifted consideration from God. 
 
jt: I've not seen the term "gifted consideration" in scripture - where did you get that from?  If we are found "in Christ" we will have received the "gift of righteousness" However sanctification and salvation are something we take part in also as co laborers with God ie: Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

We do not cause our salvation, Judy.   Phil. 2:12,13 is a favorite passage of mine, as well.   The whole point of this passage is that it is not us but God who does the work   !!!!!!!!    Apparently you have not really read this passage, either.   The only way the wording of the passage works, IMO, is that my work is one of submission to the will and working of God Himself in my life.   And, by the way, the salvation referenced is not one to which we proceed, but one WHICH HAS ALREADY OCCURED. 

I mean,  IF GOD Is ALREADY IN ME, WILLING AND WORKING, HOW COULD I NOT ALREADY BE SAVED?   In His presense is salvation found.  


 

When it is all said and done, none of us can rise to such a level of maturity that we cease to be in need of the continual flow of the blood of the Lamb or His indwelling, or His community (the church, the Word, the Spirit, spiritual counsel whether in the form of Church Fathers or pastors and teachers. )

Indefensible in my book.  The only reason "confession" works is because it is a statement of regret for sins and a pronoucement that we want agreement between what we already believe and our activity.   Do a word study on "confession."  You will find at its root this notion of agreement.  

jt: I have already studied confession John and I understand it to be agreement with God; it is when we say what He has said already about the situation.  ATST this is never possible without spiritual discernment.

Well, then, you apparently agree with me.   Spiritual discernment comes from spiritual maturity  ----    that is how the Spirit manifests the mind of God. 


John