David Miller wrote:
You aren't taking the position of Lance that truth is sometimes irrational and illogical, are you? :-)
Lance wrote:
David has just misrepresented my position. I'm confident that it's a combination of my writing (mostly) and David's reading (he's another one who from time to time IMO really quite misses the point being made). So, David, why not leave off invoiking [sic] my name and, just address the speaker and the speaker's point.
Thank you for the clarification here, Lance. Please clarify more because I truly thought you took this position. Let me document why. I'm not documenting this to prove that I am right in what I said, but to help you understand why I said what I said. This way you can better clarify your position to me and others on the list.
I think this is important for me to invoke you name and state your position on this because it greatly influences how we proceed in our discussions. If truth is not always rational from your perspective, then I can understand why some of you get upset when a rational argument proves you wrong. However, if you do consider that truth is always logical and rational, then it may be more important for me to stress a little bit stronger your inconsistencies of logic in the beliefs that you hold.
We had a discussion earlier this month that started under the subject line of "Trapped in the Flag." Following are some sections from that. The subject line was soon changed to "Is Truth always rational?."
----- Original Message ----- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 11:55 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Trapped in the Flag
David Miller wrote:
I do not believe that reason and logic are necessarily the primary sources of truth, but I believe that all truth will align with reason and logic. In other words, truth will not be found to be illogical and unreasonable. If an assertion is found to be illogical, it may be discarded as a falsehood.
Your response to this post was:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 6:54 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Trapped in the Flag
Lance wrote:
David: How does one account for: THE ILLOGIC OF GRACE?
Slade's response was:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>David Miller wrote:
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: December 04, 2004 11:11
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Trapped in the Flag
Slade wrote:Dave said: ...all truth will align with reason and logic... [and] ...truth will not be found to be illogical and unreasonable...
SLADE: Are you sure about this? What about the "foolishness of Messiah?"
Then Lance responded to this exchange with:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 11:29 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Trapped in the Flag
Lance wrote:
IMO this is FALSE. David: You speak volumes through this personal utterance. Please say more to clarify so that I may come to know that you do not mean what I take you to mean. Please do not commence by asking me what I think you mean (thanks).
Then I responded to your earlier statement with the following:
----- Original Message ----- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: December 04, 2004 13:37
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Trapped in the Flag
Lance wrote:
David Miller wrote:David: How does one account for: THE ILLOGIC OF GRACE?
I don't know what you mean. Grace seems very logical to me.
Then Lance responded with the following:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Trapped in the Flag
Lance wrote:
Will someone with the 'gift' of interpretation intervene? IMO the Grace of God and logic, as I understand it, have nothing to do with one another.
At this point, the subject line was changed to, "Is Truth always rational?." The rest of that thread can be followed easily under that subject line. Some examples of the discussion are as follows:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 10:22 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Is Truth always rational?
Right on, Slade.Bill Taylor wrote:
There is a way of knowing that is both distinct from and broader than accepted categories of reason. Or as Pascal put it, "The heart has its reasons, that reason cannot know."
Moreover, it is faith and not logic that is the requisite to all meaningful discourse, even when the object of that faith is something other than Jesus Christ himself. Now, how illogical is that?
----- Original Message ----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 1:37 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Is Truth always rational?
John Smithson wrote:
... Resurrection from the dead is not logical. The baptism of the Spirit is not only illogical, but almost impossible to even explain.
----- Original Message ----- From: Lance Muir
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 9:07 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Is Truth always rational?
Lance wrote:
IS TRUTH ALWAYS RATIONAL? Most assuredly NOT! To say otherwise is to fall prey to a deception. What is that deception? That deception is the employment of that logic which functions well WITHIN THE COSMOS within God. Same thing applies IMO with respect to the conscience.
The next day, this thread ended. This was your last direct answer to our discussion thread of, "Is Truth always rational." So how is my statement about your belief false? My statement said that you believe that truth is sometimes irrational. You say it right above here, "IS TRUTH ALWAYS RATIONAL? Most assuredly NOT!"
Peace be with you. David Miller.
p.s. Please do not think that I am trying to argue, "I was right!" I'm not. I want to understand your position on the logical and rational nature of Truth. You may be inclined to ignore this post because of its length, but this subject is VERY important to me. I have a hard time understanding how to have a serious discussion with you guys if truth is sometimes irrational. Now you seem to be saying that this is misrepresenting your perspective. Please, let us come to an understanding here. I am a rationalist who believes that faith is inherently logical, even when those in the world cannot perceive the evidence necessary for the logic to work for them. This is because the evidence is primarily internal rather than external, because it is spiritual in nature, and therefore it is a subjective truth rather than an objective truth. In fact, I often preach on university campuses on the nature of subjective truth and objective truth because our educational systems teach only objective truth.
---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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