Terry wrote:
No, not suggesting that at all. God did not plan for the fall. Had
He done so, there would have been no sin on Adam's part because, being compelled to follow the plan, he would have had no free
will to sin. Adam made his own choice to disobey God, and as his
heirs, we inherit the punishment (death) for that sin that Adam willingly
committed. Though either term could accurately be used, I simply think of my
Savior more as my redeemer than as an adopter. I wondered how you saw
it. I believe that the fall was not necessary for adoption, but a
redeemer was necessary because of the fall. Terry
jt: God in his foreknowledge
had to have known it [the fall] was going to happen since Jesus is the lamb
who was slain "before the foundation of the world".
However, God always
gives us space and if we hang it is always our own choice, not His since it is
not His will that any should perish.[even though we are aware that many
will].
Bill writes:
This sounds really good to me, Terry. Since we do live on the side of Adam's
fall, it is always somewhat speculative to talk about what it may have been
like had he not rebelled. I understand Paul to be saying that we were predestined to adoption by Christ, and this before the world was created; in other words,
long before the fall.
jt: The Church is what God
predestined in Christ before the foundation of the world and whether or not
Jesus claims either of us as a member of His Church when the day of reckoning
comes remains to be seen though we are given a measure of faith and we have
this glorious hope. We have been predestined
to become conformed to the image of His
Son - not adopted as is.
For those who deny the fall (I
understand you are not one of these Bill) I would like to know how mankind
went from the image of God [Gen 1:27 God created man in his own image, male
and female] which in fact is the image of Christ [Jn 14:9 "If you've seen me
you've seen the Father] to being by nature children of
wrath [Eph 2:3]. Just how did this happen without the
fall? So in Christ we are predestined to return from whence the first
Adam fell.
I may be
going out on a limb with this, but adoption cannot
necessitate a fall without indicting God in the process.
jt: Why? How is God
indicted for man's choices and why would an adoption even be necessary aside
from a fall? If Adam had remained in God's image and likeness this adoption
would not be an issue because there would have been no breach..
Adoption has
to have been possible apart from the fall, or God is
guilty of making us the sinful creatures we have become contra the
fall. And so, I agree with you: if the fall had to happen, then
Adam is at most only partly responsible for
his disobedience.
jt: I understand you may
choose not to answer this Bill but I don't get it. Why would adoption be
necessary apart from the fall and how do you figure God is responsible for
Adam's choice to disobey his clear instruction. Please help
me?
And since we
live on this side of the fall, I also agree with you that "Redeemer" is certainly what our Savior is, and I think
it quite appropriate to think of him in those terms. Good stuff,
Bill
jt: It follows that needing a "Redeemer" implies that there is
something we need to be redeemed from - whereas all adoption implies is that
we are orphans. Shirking responsibility for his choice was the first
indication that Adam wasn't where he should be. Let's not repeat his error by
continuing to deny the problem..
Bill Taylor wrote:
What if we use the word "redeemed" instead of the word
"adopted"? In your opinion, would that make a
difference?
Terry
Hi Terry,
Yes, I do think it
would make a difference if we use the word redeem instead of adoption. But
I'm not sure why you are asking this question; I think I am
probably misunderstanding your intent. Redeemed is what we are as a result
of what Jesus has done in our place and on our behalf. But Redemption
comes only as a result of the fall. I do not think we would need to have
been redeemed were it not for sin and death, both having been introduced
by the fall.
Are you suggesting that God created us in
order that he might redeem us?
Help!
Bill
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