Bill wrote > God was in Christ reconciling the world
to himself, but the world was not made the Church in the atonement: Paul
says, "therefore be reconciled to God." The Church universal is made up
of those who have not only not rejected Jesus Christ but have
themselves believed the good news of their salvation and received the gift of
the Holy Spirit.
jt: Would the above include both repentance and
obedience since God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him?
Bill responded > Well, yes, I believe that "believers" do
do these things, but not as a means of salvation (if that is what you are
getting at); rather it is as a result of our salvation in Christ.
jt: Does the theology really matter all that
much?
BT: I don't really know how to answer that; it does seem to get in our
way alot.
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jt: Do you think someone would be able to
'overcome' aside from these things?
BT: No, I don't. But neither do I think these things are what cause us to
overcome. I believe Christians are overcomers because Christ is in us, not
because we do this right or that right:
"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but
Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the
faithfulness of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for
me. I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes
through the law, then Christ died in vain." -- Galatians
2.20-21
Judy, I believe we do these things because we are moved to do
them by the love of our Lord, whom we love in return. Jesus said if we love
him, we will obey him. Obedience is the fruit of our love for him.
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I wrote > Local churches may be
frequented by "non-believers" of varying degrees, and this for different
reasons, but the "Church" itself is populated by believers. Bill
jt: This is good to know Bill - So ... why do
you constantly retreat?.
I responded > I am not sure I know what you are
talking about. But I would rather retreat than get into protracted arguments
with people with whom there is no hope of agreement. I love discussing ideas
and I enjoy reading or listening to the ideas of others (that is why I am
still on TT) -- but I hate debate. If there doesn't appear to
be any chance of resolve, I would rather disengage than ride a disagreement
into the gutter. I'll talk to you later,
Bill
jt: Well thanks for sharing this Bill, you never know
- we just might have a lot of common ground to discuss :)
BT: I am sure we do, Judy. I hope by God's grace we learn how better to
find it. Take care. Bill
