On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:58:53 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:The first Adam chose to do it without any propensity.
In a message dated 2/9/2005 10:31:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
No he didn't. One is tempted and then sin occurs.
Eve was deceived, for Adam it was a rational choice; he chose to disobey.
Are you saying that Eve had a "fallen nature," not Adam? If not, why on earth would you make such a distinction?
According to the gospel of JD maybe but not according to God. In creation God said it was "very good"
He sinned exactly like all of us do. His nature was the same.
He did not create a "fallen Adam"
Understand that your entire argument here is a combination of two things: a put down of my argument (which is completely unnecessary but OK - obviously something you think you must do) and the subtle assertion that your logic on the matter is of spirit-filled proportions. And I say "your logic on the matter" because you offer nothing else - simply "logic." No scripture. Just a reasoned position. In your mind, Judy cannot imagine a god who creates with anything less than perfection in mind. Therefore, Adam HAD to be perfect -- created with no capacity for sin. You see, "capacity for sin" and "fallen nature" are the same in my mind. As we stand, face to face with the creation circumstance, we see it very differently. You see it as a completed task, on every level and I do not. The "day" in the Genesis record is not a 24 hour period of time, if for no other reason than the fact that it would never take God 24 hours to say "let there be light." More than that, not a single creation [primary] event was completed on the same "day" it was presented. A careful reading of the text will varify this. So why is the creation of Adam any different. I believe in the "fall." I do not believe in a fallen nature. Adam was always going to sin. Christ was always going to come to his rescue. And that is why I believe that to disbelieve in the eternal Sonship of the Christ is to deny what was destined to happen, appointed to happen, provided for in the creation of Adam before the worlds were. When we say, "God is not finished with me yet," we speak the very thing that was true for Adam and Eve. At the moment of their creation, they were in need of the resurrected Christ. The creation event, for man, is not completed outside the reception of the Christ, His ministry of reconcilition and the spirtual process we know as "growth" resulting in a spiritual home with God in Christ. The "fall" makes this conclusion irresistable. But the "fall" did not mark the beginning of a different kind of existence for Adam, himself. Look at the record of the fall. See there in its pages, the very same processes we, you and I, go through before a sin event. We have the association with evil influences, an intellectual openness to the consideration of sin, the act of justification, the sharing of evil opinion with others, the denial of the truth of God ("you will surely die"), the reaching out for sin, the act of taking into your possession the very opportunity for sin (plucking the fruit from the tree) ------------------------all before the actual sin event. How is all this possible if they did not have the same capacity for sin, the same human nature, as we?
There can be whatever God says there can be and Adam sinned by choice without
Remember -- without propensity, there can be no propooperty and sin is poop. JD
any propensity. Jesus OTOH refused to sin aside from any propensity. JT
Now, you know that Jesus was "tempted." God is not temptable. What is the difference between Jesus and God? His flesh. He became like us in every respect. The fact is this: Christ could have sinned and chose to do otherwise, condemning all those who say, "I am flesh, I have no choice." When it comes to sin, it is not that we can or cannot sin; rather, it is that we will or will not. I do not sin because I have to. I sin because I want to. An ugly fact that condemns us all.
God has not propensity for sin, and, consequently will never sin. He cannot sin.
