Re: [TruthTalk] Original Sin

[Judy Taylor]

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:51:01 -0700 "Bill Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Judy wrote  >  Jesus layed aside his former glory so he was not on this earth as God ...   And again later she says   >   Jesus did not come here as God. He layed aside his former glory and took upon himself a body of flesh made in the likeness of men.    Judy, my friend, what does the name Emmanuel suggest to you? Please allow yourself to consider what I've written pertaining to Philippians 2.5-11 (see below*).   jt: Emmanuel means "God with us" but the same scripture that refers to Him as Emmanuel also calls Him Everlasting Father and Prince of Peace.  All true.   But earlier Judy wrote   >   For some reason you have embraced a gospel that teaches that God's image is less than pure and holy both at the beginning in the Godhead and later in the person of Jesus.   No, Judy, that is not so. Moreover, you do not realize what you have done. In the same post you have denied both Jesus' divinity and his humanity. Jesus did not come in the similarity of a man; for I am aware that this is what you mean. No, the Son of God took upon himself the likeness of man in that he was also fully human.   jt: I didn't use the word "similarity"  I used the word "likeness" which is what the Bible says.   To uphold the human nature of Jesus is not to say that his divine nature was anything less than wholly divine. Jesus was fully human and fully God, two natures in one person.   jt: I don't believe I am saying what you think that I am saying Bill. What I object to is the idea that Jesus had a "fallen human nature" in the image of the first Adam which is what the rest of us who are born by means of procreation inherit along with the 'iniquities of the fathers'   If I may, I would like to say, as it pertains to your comments about his humanity, that you are making the mistake that many, many Christians make today, in that you are attempting to make the human nature of Jesus something other than what it was -- completely human -- and this in order to uphold the integrity of his divinity (although as I consider your comments above I can only wonder why). But that is not necessary:   jt: I don't know exactly what you mean by "completely human" Bill. I have no problem with Jesus being fully human on the same order as the first Adam before the fall along with a full measure of the Holy Spirit but He was not exactly like us. He received worship.   the human nature of Jesus was not divine, and the divine nature of Jesus was not human; the humanity was human and the divinity was divine and the two came together to form an inseparable union in the one person of Jesus Christ. And because the two natures were not equal, in that his human nature was infinitely inferior to his divine, yet never once overwhelmed by it (cf Phil. 2.5-11 see below), the incarnational relationship between the two natures must always be considered asymmetrical. Being human, Jesus was frail in every manner commensurate to humanity, even in that he could sin and that he was fraught with the same proclivities as we; but being divine, he was able to overcome that frailty in every instance -- throughout his life gaining victory over that which from the time of the fall had held humanity in bondage.   jt: I don't understand your thinking Bill because it is so theological but I do understand the person of Jesus and yes he had the same limitations we do because of his humanity and he overcame temptation in the wilderness by the Word of God which is honored by God the Father, not because He was divine (he layed that aside - remember?).  His teaching was from the Father and the works were from the Father also.  He said the Father is greater than I -   Hence he was able to reverse that captivity, taking it captive and defeating it in himself -- finally and forever, once and for all. O but to recognize and embrace this truth is not to diminish the divine characteristics of our Lord; nor is it to make him less than or other than what he was; it is to worship Emmanuel, God with us, pure and holy, to exalt him and to glorify him for who he was: Mary's son, the Son of God -- for what he did, none other could do. Thank you, Jesus. Bill   jt: I don't believe I am diminishing any of that Bill; but He could not have had a fallen human nature and be pure and holy ATST. My belief is that He took the form of man upon himself with it's human limitations, everything other than it's fallenness.