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Kevin asks, Do you have some [Christian
Science] background?
No, Kevin, none at all. I know very little about
the movement. I also have nothing to do with the "Divine in man & the Christ
consciousness" stuff that you rightly are concerned about.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 5:37
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] vessels meet for
masters use
I should hope you would not teach such. It is just that without the
Blood there is NO Redemption. To start focusing on the life may be to tread a
slippery slope. We are told to avoid foolish & unlearned questions. I
believe this to be a safeguard for Pure doctrine. To venture where scripture
is silent is to go out on a limb. If it was important then God's word would
direct us in any particular doctrine. There is a saying "get your head out of
the Prophecy sky and your feet on the gospel ground." There are many plain
things in the scriptures that we should concentrate on
I put up the links because this sounds a lot like the Divine in man
& the Christ consciousness stuff of a number of Demonic teachers I
have researched in the past. This is their focus. In some ways
you sound "Christian Science" maybe it is just the choice of words you use.
Bill Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Thanks, Kevin, for the information. I hope you
do not think I am arguing that there could be redemption apart of the
shedding of (Jesus') blood. That is not my argument at all. Perhaps at
sometime in the future you may want to revisit this discussion; at that time
I will be very willing to speak further on the subject. Until that time
should arrive, however, it appears that we are at an impasse. Again, thanks
for the information and for your concern.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005
10:42 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] vessels meet
for masters use
Yes jesus priestly function is an important one. but what does that
have to do with the actual act of redmption and the Atonement?
If he had lived a perfect life No Sin No sins of Commision or
Omiision No error
and had He not been offered as our sacrifice we would have NO
REDEMPTION. There is a necessity for the DEATH of the testator! Without
the shedding of Blood NO REMISSION The efficacious portion of the
work was done on Calvalry as we have seen in the Holy Bible
It has nothing to do with a violent death as some Greek scholars
err, nor is it to do with his life as the Satanic Alice Bailey
says.
"The effort to carry out to perfection the will of God brought to an
end the most complete life that had been lived on earth."
This is the stuff Heresy is made of
See Celestial messages Here we have evil spirits talking
thru spirit channellers saying the same thing!
http://new-birth.net/tgrabjvol1/bible51.htm
For nearly two thousand years this false doctrine of the atonement has
been believed in and accepted by the so called Christian churches, and has
been promulgated by these churches as the true doctrine of Jesus and the
one upon which the salvation of man depends; and the consequences have
been that men have believed that the only things necessary to their
salvation and reconciliation to God, were the death of Jesus and the
washing away of their sins by the blood shed on Calvary.
If men only knew how futile his death was and how inefficacious
his blood is to wash away sin and pay the debt to the Father,
they would not rest in the assurance that all they have to do is to
believe in this sacrifice and this blood, but would learn the true plan of
salvation and make every effort in their power to follow that plan, and as
a consequence, have their souls developed so that they would come into
harmony with the Father's love and laws
http://www.divinelove.org TRUE
GOSPEL REVEALED ANEW BY JESUS?
http://www.christianway.org/CS%20and%20the%20Bible/Jesus.htm
Christian
Science: Jesus Christ has a
dual nature � Jesus the mortal man and Christ the spiritual idea of
man. Jesus is the human man, and Christ is the divine idea;
hence, the duality of Jesus the Christ.� (Science and Health,
473:10-17)
CS The efficacy of the crucifixion
lay in the practical affection and goodness it
demonstrated for mankind. The truth had been lived among
men; but until they saw that it enabled their Master to triumph over the
grave, his own disciples could not admit such an event to be possible. . .
.
CS The efficacy of Jesus� spiritual offering is
infinitely greater than can be expressed by our sense of human blood. The
material blood of Jesus was no more efficacious to cleanse from
sin when it was shed upon �the accursed tree,� than when it was
flowing in his veins as he went daily about his Father�s business.�
(Science and Health, 24:20-31, 25:3-9)
CS �One sacrifice, however great, is insufficient to pay the debt of
sin. The atonement requires constant self-immolation on the
sinner�s part
http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/aquinas/acreed10.htm
THE COMMUNION OF SAINTS We must also know that not
only the efficacy of the Passion of Christ is
communicated to us, but also the merits of His life; and,
moreover, all the good that all the Saints have done is communicated to
all who are in the state of grace, because all are one: "I am a partaker
of all them that fear Thee."[16] Therefore, he who lives in charity
participates in all the good that is done in the entire world; but more
specially does he benefit for whom some good work is done; since one man
certainly can satisfy for another.[17] Thus, through this communion we
receive two benefits. One is that the merits of Christ are communicated to
all; the other is that the good of one is communicated to another. Those
who are excommunicated, however, because they are cut off from the Church,
forfeit their part
http://www.spandayoga.org/grace.html
It is God�s Grace that leads you to the Master, known as a Siddha, Guru or
Acharya, who is the grace-bestowing power of God, and a Teacher. And it is
the Master�s Grace that sets you on your own path back to God. Grace is
the beginning, the middle and the end. Nothing can be accomplished without
Grace.
Once you have learned to recognize Grace, you are able to follow
it, allowing Grace to uplift and transform your life.
I care not to Believe Doctrines of
Devils
"without shedding of blood is no
remission"
Friend, it is not thine experience-it is the blood. God did not say,
"When I see your experience," but, "When I see the blood of Christ."
Acquire experience, cultivate the Christian graces. But, oh, do not put
them where Christ's blood ought to be.
Bill Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
I think you are viewing this too
restrictively, Kevin. I hope you will come to consider it in a broader
context. May I ask you a couple questions? What kind of a priest
would Christ be, had he not learned obedience through the things he
suffered? Does this suffering apply only to his death? I think not: "For
in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those
who are tempted."
Hebrews 2.14-18: "Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood,
He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might
destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release
those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to
bondage. For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid
to the seed of Abraham. Therefore, in all things He had to be made like
His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in
things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the
people. For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able
to aid those who are tempted."
His redemptive work certainly
culminated into a great climax at the cross -- but it did not
consist only of the cross. For instance, as we see in these verses, the
propitiation which he secured at the cross must be viewed as
inclusive of the entirety of his life; for where would we be today
without his priestly mediation? and how could he be our merciful and
faithful High Priest, had he not in all things been made like his
brethren to make propitiation for our sins?
"Though He was a Son, yet He
learned obedience by the things which He suffered. And having been
perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey
Him, called by God as High Priest . . ." (Heb 5.8-10).
Anyway, I hope you will consider
this. I will not push it any further.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005
7:48 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] vessels
meet for masters use
To sin once is to be guilty of breaking ALL the law!
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole
law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Which would make Him
guilty and fit for HELL FIRE.
it was His death that ATONED for MY sin
"Without the shedding of blood is no
remission"
No matter how nice one may or may not seem. Before I was Born
Again I was an ENEMY of God
Rm 6 But God commendeth his
love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ
died for us. Much more then, being now
justified by his blood, we shall be
saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were
enemies, we were reconciled to God by the
death of his Son
RM 3 Whom God hath set forth
to be a propitiation through faith in his
blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission
of sins
Col 1 In whom we have redemption through his
blood, even the forgiveness of sins
Hebrews How much more shall
the blood of Christ, who through the eternal
Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your
conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for
this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by
means of death, for the redemption of
the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are
called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a
testament is, there must also of necessity be the
death of the testator. ...
without shedding of
blood is no remission
So we see we are reconciled by His death
We are justified by His blood
We are Redeemed thru His blood
He is the propitiation thru FAITH in His blood
D A
Waite The Bible is silent as to
"HIS WHOLE LIFE" as forming any basis whatever for "THE REDEMPTIVE
EFFICACY OF CHRIST'S WORK." It was as the "LAMB OF GOD" that He could
"take away the sin of the world" (John 1:29), and this "LAMB" was
crucified and shed His precious blood (1 Peter 1:18-19) as the
atonement and sacrifice for the sins of the whole world! "Without the
shedding of blood is no remission" (Hebrews 9:22). To say that
Christ's "WHOLE LIFE" had anything to do with the "REDEMPTIVE EFFICACY
OF CHRIST'S WORK" is to partake of the HERESY of modernistic religious
APOSTASY!
Bill Taylor
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Westcott believed that the redemptive efficacy of Christ's work
was to be "found in his whole life" rather than in his
death.
I am somewhat perplexed as to the
"offense" of the above, Kevin. I understand that you do not hold to
the same view as I, concerning the inward nature of Christ's
humanity, but Westcott's belief seems to be a "true" even
under your view. What would it have done to the redemptive efficacy
of Christ's work if he had sinned at some point throughout his life?
Was it not via his whole obedience that he fulfilled the Law?
It seems to me that obedience to the Law was very much a
part of his redemptive work. Do you disagree?
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 19,
2005 6:29 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
vessels meet for masters use
Yes, unequivically! He uses 'rascals'
like those on TT so..............?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: February 19, 2005
08:19
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
vessels meet for masters use
Would God use rascals like these in the translation or for
that matter any of his work?
The new versions come from W&H's contrived text.
First Nazi's, then Perverts and now Heretics as the Fathers
of the Modern translations.
http://wayoflife.org/otimothy/tl09000c.htm
Westcott and Hort held a vague or erroneous position on
inspiration, revelation, or inerrancy.
Westcott embraced the
heresy of the universal Fatherhood of God.
Westcott denies
that God had to be propitiated.
Westcott taught that men
could be divine in some way.
Westcott espoused evolution in
various ways.
Westcott had a heretical theory of man's
sinfulness and depravity, believing in man's perfectibility in
various ways.
Westcott and Hort failed to affirm the
personality of the Devil, calling him only a power.
Westcott
and Hort denied that Heaven is a place, speaking of it as a
state.
Westcott believed that the redemptive efficacy of
Christ's work was to be "found in his whole life" rather than in
his death.
Westcott questioned the eternal preexistence of
the Lord Jesus Christ.
Westcott and Hort denied the deity of
Jesus Christ.
Westcott explained away some of the miracles of
Christ.
Westcott and Hort denied or gave a false meaning to
the literal, bodily resurrection of Christ.
Westcott and Hort
had a false and heretical view of the vicarious, substitutionary
sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ.
http://www.picknowl.com.au/homepages/rlister/wh/wh.htm
Westcott: "My faith is
still wavering. I cannot determine how much we
must believe; how much, in fact, is necessarily required of a
member of the Church." (Life, Vol.I, p.46).
Westcott: "After leaving the monastery we
shaped our course to a little oratory...It is very small, with
one kneeling-place; and behind a screen was a
'Pieta' the size of life (i.e. a Virgin and dead
Christ)...I could not help thinking on the grandeur of the
Romish Church, on her zeal even in error, on her earnestness and
self-devotion, which we might, with nobler views and a purer
end, strive to imitate. Had I been alone I could have knelt
there for hours." (Life, Vol.I, p.81).
Westcott: "All stigmatise him (a Dr.
Hampden) as a 'heretic,'...I thought myself
that he was grievously in error, but yesterday I read over the
selections from his writings which his adversaries make, and in
them I found systematically expressed the very strains of
thought which I have been endeavouring to trace out for the last
two or three years. If he be condemned, what will become
of me?" (Life, Vol.I,p.94).
Hort: "But the book which has most engaged
me is Darwin. Whatever may be thought of it, it
is a book that one is proud to be contemporary with. I must work
out and examine the argument in more detail, but at present my
feeling is strong that the theory is
unanswerable." (Life, Vol.I, p.416).
Hort: "I entirely agree - correcting
one word - with what you there say on the Atonement, having for
many years believed that "the absolute union of the Christian
(or rather, of man) with Christ Himself" is the spiritual truth
of which the popular doctrine of substitution is an
immoral and material counterfeit...Certainly nothing
can be more unscriptural than the modern limiting of Christ's
bearing our sins and sufferings to His death; but indeed that is
only one aspect of an almost universal heresy." (Life, Vol.I,
p.430).
Hort: "I have been persuaded for many
years that Mary-worship and 'Jesus'-worship
have very much in common in their causes and their results."
(Life, Vol.II, p.50).
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