DAVEH: Why is the Bible necessary, Perry? Is it not possible for one
to get a clear understanding of the evidence of God's nature from his
creations........
Paul
says that God is evident in all of creation, so no man is without
excuse.
.........From my LDS perspective, I don't have to rely on just nature,
or just the Bible as you have suggested is adequate. To limit
my view as you suggest would put me in a position to view God as the
ogre you referred to before.
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
DaveH, if you were to stop reading that heretical Momron
literature and forming your own personal opinions of how you would like
for God to be, and to begin to study the Bible in light of itself, not
extrabiblical LDS references, you would come to a clear understanding
of what God has revealed to us about his nature.
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: [TruthTalk] Loving and Merciful God of Justice
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 23:37:36 -0800
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave wrote:
I think one of the biggest /problems
/(if that is the proper word to use) I have with Protestantism is their
view of hell and damnation. I've said it before, but for some of you
who are a bit new to TT, I'll give you a brief explanation. It seems
to me that Protestants are far too eager to toss those who don't agree
with their perspective of religion on the ash heap of hell, so o
speak. Or rather, they seem to pleasure in the thought that God will
forever punitively torture those who fail to walk that narrow path and
enter the strait gate. I just don't feel comfortable believing in a
God who relishes torture, Lance. I prefer to believe God is loving,
merciful and would that all his creation benefit from their existence.
Dave, if I may comment on your perspective of "protestants"... I do
not find your perception at all be consitent with the Christians
("protestants", if you prefer, although "protestants" does not
encompass the whole of Christendom)
DAVEH: I realize that, Perry. From my perspective, it is
Protestantism that has drawn me to TT. If I wanted to talk to any
Christian, I could simply chat with the LDS folks I meet at church.
I have known throughout my life. I know
that God wants none to perish, and would like for all to come to Him.
However, he is just at the same time, and those who refuse God will
have an eternal life apart from Him.
DAVEH: I fully agree with what you've said so far, Perry. What
concerns me is how Protestants view what happens to those who those who
do not accept Jesus.
It is their own choice. Paul says that God
is evident in all of creation, so no man is without excuse.
DAVEH: That's pretty lame in my opinion, Perry. So.....are you saying
that a person who lived without ever hearing of Jesus (say 1500 years
ago in China) should be a believer of Jesus because of the evidence of
God in what has been created? Simply appreciating the wonders of the
world God created makes one a Christian, so to speak? ........Is that
what you are suggesting, Perry? Or....do you think that the tongue
needs to confess Jesus to be a believer in Jesus?
I have never met a protestant that truly finds pleasure in the
thought that unbeleivers will spend eternity apart from God, whatever
that may be like. Nor have I ever met ANY Christian who believes that
God relishes torture.
DAVEH: You are a late comer to TT.....
However, I have heard that from unbeleivers
who are looking for reasons to reject God.
The bottom line is that God IS loving and merciful, and would like
for all to come to Him, but he also is just. None of us are worthy,
Dave as Paul said...none is without sin.
DAVEH: Agreed. But for those who do not accept Jesus, do you not
belief that men will be *forever *physically tortured for a sin they
committed in mortality....a fixed time frame? How does such a
momentary transgression bring such a long term physical punishment?
Furthermore, it is not the transgression that demands the physical
torture that lasts forever, but it is the failure to accept Jesus that
separates those who receive that punitively painful punishment from
those who get all the treasures of heaven. The whole Protestant
concept of hell pivots on simply accepting Jesus or not. And that
concept of hell is one of either pleasure, or torture. Does a simple
mental attitude (that may not be the way to best express it) justify
forever being in pleasure vs forever being physically tortured? To me
it seems like a rather unloving and unmerciful way to dispense justice.
And, no man is without excuse, because god
is evident in creation. At the final call, either we wil have beleived,
or we will not have beleived. And, only a merciful and just God can
make that call...only He is worthy to open the book of life.
I am truly sorry that you have that perspective of Christians.
DAVEH: I don't have that perspective of all Christians at all, Perry.
(Or, the subset called "protestants" if you
prefer).
DAVEH: I certainly have seen more of that unpalatable perspective in
Protestants than Christians.
I do not know where you have gotten your
information,
DAVEH: Some has come from what I find beneath my windshield wipers,
but a lot of it has come from TT.
but it certainly does not reflect the
Christians I know or have met. I have never felt that way.
DAVEH: ??? Really? Do you not think God will toss all those who do
not accept Jesus into a lake of fire to be forever physically tortured,
Perry??? I thought you would believe such. If I am wrong in assuming
you believe that way....please correct me. If you do not answer any of
my other questions in this post, Perry, I would very much appreciate
you responding to this question.
In fact, one of the toughest questions I
have had to deal with since becoming a Christian is how such wonderful,
sincerel, loving people, the Mormons, could be considered a cult, and
perhaps rejected by God. I found that the answer lies not in the way
one appears to behave, but that one beleives in the true God of thee
universe, not some counterfeit.
DAVEH: I find it hard to accept that a loving, merciful and just God
would punitively and forever physically torture people.
Perry
Lance Muir wrote:
With a vengeance?
DAVEH: Yes Lance, I meant that in the sense they will soon be flooding
my inbox with more than I am capable of assimilating. I did not intend
to suggest their posts would be vengeful.
I think not. More likely praising God
for the richness of the time they spent at a conference. I'll not steal
any of their thunder.
Tell me, Dave, were it to be the case that you are, in reality, quite
wrong as to your understanding of God and His Gospel, what do you
believe the consequences would be? (eternally).
DAVEH: If I am wrong in my beliefs, then would not my perception of my
consequences also be in question?
I think one of the biggest /problems /(if that is the proper word to
use) I have with Protestantism is their view of hell and damnation.
I've said it before, but for some of you who are a bit new to TT, I'll
give you a brief explanation. It seems to me that Protestants are far
too eager to toss those who don't agree with their perspective of
religion on the ash heap of hell, so to speak. Or rather, they seem to
pleasure in the thought that God will forever punitively torture those
who fail to walk that narrow path and enter the strait gate. I just
don't feel comfortable believing in a God who relishes torture, Lance.
I prefer to believe God is loving, merciful and would that all his
creation benefit from their existence.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
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If you wish to receive
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