DAVEH: OK Kevin.....For once we have a bit of agreement between
us....at least on the surface. I also believe death is the punishment
for transgression. However, you seem to want to extrapolate that a
bit further than me. And, I may have a different definition of death
than you......
To me, death means a separation......of which there are
two scenarios. In the case of physical death, that separation is
between the spirit and the body. When death occurs, the spirit leaves
the mortal body. When one is given eternal life, that spirit and body
are recombined as a resurrected being. The second instance of death
is a spiritual death, which I understand to mean one is separated from
God. Those who transgress God's Law will suffer spiritual death for
their sins, unless they accept Jesus and invite the atoning grace of
our Savior to return them to the love of God.
Do you agree with any of the above, Kevin? If not, how do you
define death?
As I see it, you further believe that God is going to extend his
punishment of death (upon which we agree) beyond a finite event of
limited pain to a vindictive and punitive physical torture by throwing
the unrepentant sinner into a literal lake of fire. Is that your
belief, Kevin? I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I assume
that is how you see it.....that God is essentially an ogre as described
in Perry's post.
IF that is how you perceive it, Kevin, I do believe you are drawing
unwarranted conclusions as to how a merciful and just God dispenses his
justice. What possible reason would God have to physically torture a
person forever? What justice is served by such cruelty? Death
yes....we can agree. Torture???......No, on that we must disagree. My
God of love and mercy is not one who relishes such. If you prefer to
believe God tortures people, may the Lord have mercy on you.
Kevin Deegan wrote:
I just don't see why any Christian would think the Lord would
physically and punitively literally toss them into a burning lake to
torture them forever. Why is such brutality needed by God? I don't
see why it makes sense to anyone who believes God is a loving
parent.....rather it makes God seem like the ogre Perry mentioned.
Maybe when you move in next door to some of the most debased
characters who ever walked this earth, you will know why. The same
reason homeowners do not want child molestors, murderers, cannibals to
move into the neighborhood. There is also a just punishment to
consider. You may take lying lightly, but all sin is breaking of God's
law. the punishment for lying is the same as Murder, The DEATH
SENTENCE. The only way out is accepting God's pardon thru the sacrifice
and payment of the death sentence by Jesus Christ. Without that pardon
God is too Holy to even look on your sin and will cast you out of His
sight forever into the lake of fire so you can be neighbors with a
Motley Crew. In God's presence will only be the Pure Redeemed, washed
by the Blood of the Lamb!
No admittence to those without a Wedding Garment!
MT 22 And he saith unto him,
Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a
wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the
king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there
shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are
called, but few are chosen
David Miller wrote:
DaveH wrote:
> It is one thing to spank your kid and send him to his
> room for the night. It is another to toss him into a
> boiling cauldron knowing that he will be screaming
> in torment due to physical pain forever. If any
Christian
> wanted to do that to his child.....I would question
their
> sanity as a parent AND a Christian.
You are confusing the issue by not identifying the issue at
hand. Spanking a child is a form of discipline. It is a way that
children are trained. The Torah teaches us that if a child does not
respond to such chastening, but rather becomes rebellious and
incorrigible, then the parents should take them to the elders to be
stoned to death (see Deut. 21). Maybe God would question your sanity
for being unwilling to obey Torah on this matter.
DAVEH: My comment about any Christian wanting to do that to his child
was not referring to spanking, but rather to using excessive punishment
for a child's transgression. When you punish (not that you would ever
need to, DavidM!) any of your children, does your punishment reflect
the magnitude of the crime (so to speak)? IOW....If one of your kids
disobeys one of your requests to read do something simple, would you
then take a baseball bat to them and wail on them to within an inch of
their life and continue doing such every day for a year? Of course
not! Yet many Protestants believe God will do much worse than that.
DaveH wrote:
> Would you be willing to forever physically (and
punitively)
> torture him for such an action?
No, but I recognize that the reason I am unwilling is
because of my own unrighteousness.
DAVEH: ??? Are you sure you want to go there, DavidM? In other
words, if you were (more) righteous, you would be more brutal? This is
sounding more like Muslim fanaticism than Christianity.
DaveH wrote:
> Do you think you inflicting physical torturous injury
on him
> every second of his eternal existence would be just
punishment
> for simply saying no to Jesus?
Yes.
DAVEH: Thank you for your brutal honesty, DavidM. At least there is
no question where you stand on this matter. IMHO, the punishment does
not fit the crime. I cannot fathom a loving parent who would be so
cruel.
DaveH wrote:
> If Protestants want to belief eternal physical torture
> is the method God uses to dispense his love and
> mercy in the name of justice.....forgive me for being
> unsympathetic to such beliefs.
You confuse the issue again. God's execution of his wrath
and judgment is not a dispensing of love and mercy. His love and mercy
is manifested in what he did in sending his Son Jesus Christ, and again
his love and mercy is manifested in how he bestows forgiveness upon
those who believe upon him. At the same time, his judgment remains
true and right against those who have rejected his Son Jesus.
DAVEH: It is my opinion that those who reject the Lord will in turn be
rejected by him. Effectively, that rejection will distance them from
the Lord's presence and love. I just don't see why any Christian
would think the Lord would physically and punitively literally toss
them into a burning lake to torture them forever. Why is such
brutality needed by God? I don't see why it makes sense to anyone who
believes God is a loving parent.....rather it makes God seem like the
ogre Perry mentioned.
Peace be with you.
David Miller.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain Five email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
|
