[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 3/24/2005 4:58:43 AM
Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I
know the truth, because He told me the truth.
Terry,
I wish the above solved the problem, Terry. But it does not. God has
spoken to me just as definitely and in as great a detail as He has
you. My view of justification is the biblical view. I have as much
scripture as you do and a more consistent rationale. Mine is truly the
story of "good news" to others.
You disagree? Of course, proving that "He told me so" has nothing to
do with solving the problem at hand.
I don't know if anyone has noticed but I have left off the sarcasm for
a while. I use it when others dive into the gutter of expressed
judgmentalism and slander. For the time being -- it seems that we
all have grown just a bit.
At any rate, this particular discussion -- and we are a discussion
group -- is obviously a most important matter.
I am going to assume a thing or two in the words you wrote in the above
and the immediate past. You see God as not having secured my
salvation apart from my response. Which is the same as saying "God has
not secured my personal and individual salvation." He has only
provided for the possibility of my salvation. The rest is up to me.
Some on your side of the fence even believe that I have to stop sinning
in order to effect my salvation !!
You describe a covenant relationship in the above thinking, when in
fact, you have described a contract. When God made covenant with
Abraham, to establish a nation in his seed, to make that people as
numerous as the stars in the sky (something He did not do in a literal
sense, by the way -- a difference between millions of people and
billions of stars), He made a covenant that only He could fulfill.
And right here, in this illustration, we have the crux of the problem,
the disagreement, do we not? If I were you, I would argue that
although Abraham could not accomplish the fulfillment of the covenant,
a nation of God's people or a Seed that would redeem (depending on
which NT text you approach). he had to have that first son. And if his
wife was barren and he was over the hill in regard to sexual activity,
still, the sexual act HAD to occur. Abraham had to do something.
I think that both sides of this issue get bogged down right here.
Activity on our part IS A NECESSARY ACTION. The right and left
actually do agree with this. If you followed Bill Taylor or Lance Muir
or Jonathan Hughes around, you would find no less a life of
righteousness, peace and joy than exists in your own life. No one on
the left (on this forum) lives a life of sinful self indulgence --
but your side often insists that what the left believes will lead to
that conclusion. It does not. Karl Barth (the very
manifestation of the raving liberal who believes in nothing except the
value of his own thinking) died a righteous man -- certainly as
righteous you or any in your camp. He spent his entire adult life
reconciling his beliefs to the "B I B L E." Why is that? Did he
just luck out -- living that lifestyle by accident? Our lives
--------- yours and mine, yours and Barth's, yours and Deegan's,
yours and Lance Muir's -------- are remarkably the same AND FOR THE
SAME REASON if we can state that reason in terms of pleasing God
because of the Spiritual Force that is within each of us. It is a
shame that this sameness has no value to you in terms of defining the
boundaries of the family of God. If we were placed under the same
rule of Satan as Barth and Bonhoeffer, two who did not agree on what
must be done about the Ass called Hitler, judgmentalism would fall
away. We would share in the same fear of the enemy, the same
persecution, the same work of extinction. We would be brothers. I
would be hiding your loved ones and you would be saving mine. THAT is
what would happen. It almost makes me cry.
Abraham and his effort? God wants us involved. His effort was
necessary if the seed was to come from his lineage. God has included
us in partnership with Him. But that does not change the fact that
the covenant is from God to us, period. Abraham began working to
fulfill the covenant ALREADY MADE TO HIM. God's promises are God's
realities. To argue that Christ was not going to happen in the flesh
apart from Abraham's cooperation is not a biblical view, IMO.
Christ's activity was determined before the foundations of the world,
of course. Abraham is included in the covenant relationship but is
not the weak link in the chain we call "the redemption of man."
Think about what you are saying. God's plan depended upon the
cooperation of a particular man and the continuing effect of salvation
in my life is dependent upon ME, praise the Lord (?)
We have God at the top of the cliff throwing a rope to one trapped on a
ledge below. The rescue is effective because the cliff hanger reaches
up and grabs the rope. When pulled to the top, all will say that God
At The Top did the saving. No one will argue that the man on the edge
saved himself. And so God throws the rope and all we do is grab it
and hang on for dear life. Pretty close? So ............ what if we
are driven to the bottom of the cliff by a consuming fire. Hell is
licking at our heels. And God is in Heaven -- miles and miles
above. He throws the rope and we grab it .......................
and hang onto it for a salvation that is miles and miles and miles
above us. Got strength? But I must call it a morning. Beans.
To be continued with a thorough discussion of Col 1:17 -23. Understand
that I am only sharing my faith -- I do not mean to be "talking
down." But this is a discussion group. I only wish it was a
fellowship of the saints -- but "discussion group" is good.
Jd
You assume too much, my friend. You assume that I am part of a group.
I am not. There are simply others here to whom God has revealed the
truth. If I were alone, I would still believe as I do because it is
the truth. What you and Bill believe makes no sense. I know that and
cannot be swayed. I believe a response is required by God, followed by
a life of obedience.
If you are comfortable thinking you can keep your sin and still be
considered righteous I feel sorry for you. It seems that when you
first joined this group you had a better handle on things, but you have
gone steadily down hill since. Possibly the things you read have
beguiled you.
I have no hard feelings toward you. If you were broke down, I would
stop to help. You would probably make a decent neighbor. I think you
are probably a nice guy who has traded the truth for a lie, but don't
even realize it. Am I saying you are lost? No, that is not for me to
say. I asked you yesterday to examine yourself. When you do, you can
answer that question for yourself. I wouldn't bet a nickle either way.
I don't know your heart.
Terry
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