Re: [TruthTalk] Eternal Judgment

[Judy Taylor]

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:35:20 -0700 "Bill Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I have one or two questions concerning this perceived "universally inclusive language" of scripture. 1. Where does one find the word "cadaver" in the scriptures to start with?   Hi Judy. "Cadaver" is a metaphor, just like Paul's language of "being dead" is a metaphor used to describe the inability of the saints at Colosse to have done anything to effectuate their own salvation. As you know, a cadaver is a dead person.   jt: I understand what you are trying to communicate Bill but I have trouble reconciling it with the writings of Paul because "cadaver" describes a dead physical body and "dead in trespasses and sin" is describing a spiritual condition and being spiritually dead per se does not preclude the ability to make the choice to receive life when presented with the reality of the cross.   Paul says that the saints to whom he wrote "were dead" but Christ made them "alive" and forgave them; he also says that they were given this life and forgiveness at the cross (2.13-14). Elsewhere he writes that Christ made peace "through the blood of the cross" (1.20).    jt: Paul writes the same thing in Ephesians 2:1-3 - and these scriptures need to be understood in the light of other scripture.   Before answering the questions below I would like to direct you back to the subject at hand. I was very specific about what language I considered to be universally inclusive, supplying the verses to which I spoke (Col 1.13-14, 16-17, 19-20; 2.9 and 13-15). Will you please go through these verses one by one and explain to me why they are not universal in scope and intent?   jt: I had and have been through them Bill, nothing is changed.  The Bible is written to God's people and every letter is addressed to saints, called out ones, etc.  Also noone is quicked aside from the indwelling Spirit who was not sent to the world.  I know this sounds exclusive but it is God's Word not mine and His is the Spirit who inspired the human authors.    To adequetaly address your questions below, it would be necessary for me to set the stage by first establishing the vicarious humanity of Christ -- what that that means, and why it is so important.    jt: I think we may have been over this before but I would be interested in what you say   I have attempted to do this on numerous occasions, each time to no avail: my impression is that you are just not willing to go there (although Lance thinks you are unable). If you are interested and willing to consider what I have to say, I will be glad to set that context; from there we can begin to work through the effectual or salvific aspects of atonement and the way in which we are to understand our active responses to the gospel through such things as repentance, baptism, and faith.   You can let me know.   By the way, I have already addressed your third question. See below.   Have a nice day.   Bill   2. Why did God send John the Baptist into the wilderness to tell cadavers to repent and come up with fruit showing they had done so before the axe was laid to the root of the tree?  Is God having John demand that these people do something that is impossible for them under the circumstances?  2. Why are Peter and Paul told to do the same (Acts 3:19, 17:30, 26:20)  3. Does the so called "universally inclusive language" negate the first two verses in the book of Colossians which tell us who this letter is addressed to?  "From Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother, to the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse...."  or doessn't this make a difference?  judyt   On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 23:29:53 -0700 "Bill Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Perhaps, Izzy, it would do me good to have you explain to me how the universally inclusive language of verses like Col 1.13-14, 16-17, 19-20; 2.9 and 13-15, apply only to those who have "repented and received" Christ as Lord and Savior -- but not to those who have not. You are correct that this letter is written to the "saints," but I fail to see how Paul's language in the verses mentioned above is inclusive only of them (it was after all while even the saints of his address "were dead" that Christ made them alive together with him, having forgiven them all their trespasses. What, pray tell, can a cadaver do to activate her own salvation?). In fact, it looks to me that Paul intentionally expands and then narrows his address repeatedly throughout the first two chapters of this letter, sometimes referencing and including all of the created order and other times speaking specifically to the ministry of Christ's "body, which is the church." So please, Izzy, set me straight :>)