On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 23:10:57 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If you are comfortable thinking you can keep your sin and still be considered righteous I feel sorry for you.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Actually, I am comfortable thinking that YOU can keep your sin and still be considered righteous, Terry.
Woe to them that are at ease in Zion (Amos 6:1, Exodus 19:5); How so JD? you shouldnât be comfortable with anything of the sort, that is if you are a genuine believer. Have you cut 1 John 3:7 out of your Bible? The above type of thinking is âstinkinâ thinkinâ
You, my dear, have completely rejected the
gospel of grace, choosing to be judged by the degree of righteousness,
personal righteousness, you can gender as you seek to obey the legal system
Peter saw as "burdensome." Your quote of I Jo 3:7 ignores the meaning
and implication of the word "practice." You refuse to allow the first
chapter of this letter to have anything to do with determining the context of
the 3rd chapter. You have not a clue as to what it means to
believe that "faith has been reckoned as righteousness." Ever
knowing and never learning. Isn't that how you have put it to me
in the past. Well, back at you.
jt: I've not rejected anything John. I don't have to cut any parts out of my Bible, I'm at peace with all of it in balance and in context. However you negate "Little children, let no man deceive you; he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous" (1 John 3:7), it's not possible to be doing/practicing righteousness and ATST comfortable in sin.As for faith being reckoned as righteousness. I understand this VERY WELL. Abraham demonstrated it for us. He believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness. However, Abraham's believing was not without corresponding action.He was willing to sacrifice the child of Promise believing that God could raise him up again if need be and this is the kindof faith God honors. Doctrines that don't conform anyone to righteousness will get nothing from God.
That's the issue, here. And this has nothing to do with the latest in theological renewal on my part.
Oh well! It is definitely not the âfaith once delivered to the saintsâ
Make another guess.I have believed and understood Paul in Romans on this matter for many a year. It is Paul who says you are saved by faith apart from obedience to any law. That is Paul talking, not me. It is Paul who says we all continue to fall short of the glory of God. What in the world do you think that means?
I think it means that rather than come up with our own interpretation we should follow Paul as he followed Christ ie: the same Paul who wrote 1 Cor 9:21b,22 - âbeing not without the law to God but under the law to Christâ and we both know that Christ did not live and then die to negate Godâs moral law
And so Judy believes that all "are falling short of His glory" means that we should follow Paul as he follows Christ. What ?????? this answer makes no sense at all and is certainly not what Paul, himself, meant when he revealed that you, David Miller, Terry Clifton, Linda Shields, Lance Muir, Bill Taylor and all others ARE FALLING SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD even as I write.jt: The Bible doesn't even say "all ARE falling short" JD - The Bible says "For all have sinned and come shsort of the glory of God" (Rom 3:23). For believers this has got to be past tense or "Shall we sin that grace may abound?" God forbid, may it never be .. is what Paul himself says about it.
It is Paul who describes the continuing sin problem (Ro 7:25) and then tells his readers that God has solved that problem by taking away condemnation (8:1).
You need to throw that NIV in the trash JD because the above misconception could damn your soul. Look at Romans 8:1b and you will see that condemnation is only removed from those who walk after the spirit and who do not fulfill the lust of the fleshâ
Actually, I am using a Greek interlinear, the NASV and the NKJV. Romans 8:2 is misquoted by you in the above. I cannot find any version that quotes it the way you do. Those who are serving self, have one nature. Those who hear and believe (they have already been reconciled) embrace a second and "new" nature. It is the child of God who shares in the conflict between the two natures. It is this tension that proves that we are one of His. Romans 7:25 concludes that the problem is a continuing issue solved by the fact that IN CHRIST there is therefore, now, no condemnation. The "conditional" aspect is "in Christ." There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. If we look to our righteousness, our actions, we fail. Our righteousness is as filthy rags. And If, if we could do enough of the right thing to be saved, it would be owed us as a debt (Rom 4:4). Peter speaks of obeying the law as a burden greater than "we could bear." This is an apostle of the New Faith; one who is a Christian leader speaking to other Christians and saying, let's not bind the law, God's law, on the Gentile Church (Acts 15:10,11).jt: Your Gk interlinear must have come from Westcott & Hort. Anyway it is Romans 8:1b that I refer to and it reads "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:1,2) What do you mean a second nature?The battle is between flesh and spirit. Flesh is spiritual death - Spirit is life. So the person who is busy claiming to be"in Christ" who ATST is walking after the flesh every day in sin is deceived. God's moral law will still judge them and their heart will condemn them before God. Surely you don't believe that Jesus came so that we could depart from the Law of Moses into antinomianism. The scriptures define sin as "lawlessness" (1 John 3:4) and John writes that one who is born of God can not sin (1 John 3:9) - are you going to cut these out of the Gk text also JD?The Levitical law is what Peter is dealing with in Acts 15 because the Judaisers were trying to get baby believers to follow Christ under the Jewish Levitical Law. Sin is sin (lawlessness) under both covenants. As believers we are to fulfill the law through Christ - a "double minded" man get's nothing from God. (James 1).
It was Peter, in Acts 15 who admitted that the keeping of the law was a burden that should not be passed on (Acts 15:10).
Peter did not advocate imposing Jewish Law upon new believers at Antioch who were Gentile and indwelt by the Holy Spirit anyway - he did not introduce a doctrine of antinomianism.
You can use whatever wording you so choose to escape the truth of scripture. I cannot stop you, but Peter said what he said and the application was sent to the Gentile Church.It is God -speak in the Galatian letter that tells of love, joy, peace, kindness and then establishes these things by saying, "against which there is no law."
When the believer walks in these nine gifts consistently that is. When we sin against love we break Godâs moral law and the curse is right there to judge.
Again, you prove yourself to be a legalist. Salvation is up to you. God only gave us the opportunity of redemption. There is nothing different from your gospel and the Old Law.
jt: JD you follow doctrines that don't conform you to godliness and that blind you to the truth of God's Word. Yes Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law because "cursed is everyone who hangeth on a tree" Yes he took our punishment at Calvary and he did that so that we could be conformed to His image. We are supposed to walk as He walked which is in'righteousness and holiness' You can not claim to be "in Christ" and ATST comfortable in your sin. That is major deception.
It was God's plan to move from law to Spirit (Jere 31:31-34), not mine.
It was not Godâs plan to pass empty promises on to those who consistently walk in the flesh rather than in His fear.
No promise of God is empty. Only the words of those too stubborn to surrender. Perfect love casts out fear.
jt: God's promises are not empty to those with understanding. However, traditions of men make His Word of no effect.Perfect love casts out the kind of fear that has torment John. Don't you understand the difference between the fear of God which is the beginning of wisdom and which causes one to depart from evil - and the other kind of fear?It was Christ who asked us to "seek first [and foremost] the sovereign rule and authority of God [Matt 6:33] ........" Sovereign rule and authority is an inward thing, Terry.
Seeking first the Kof G and His righteousness and walking in both is how we walk in the blessings rather than the curses and have all of our earthly needs met.
If you were Bill saying this, I would agree -- but your are a legalist writing this.jt: I am a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ JD. How would you like it if I began calling you a "sinner" since you are so comfortable with the label?You, therefore, believe that God does not give you the necessities of life and greater if you are not fully and consistently walking in His righteousness..............................life would tell you this is not true.jt: What do Matt 6:30, 31, 32 say JD? This is the topic of their conversation. As for me. I believe that God allows it to rain on both just and unjust. However, the unjust bring a lot of grief upon themselves by their own choices, poverty and lack being some of it.This is where the lack of a well defined hermeneutic gets in the way. A positive statement in scripture does not allow the student to usurp an equally antithetical but unstated principle to be true. "If we seek the kingdom of God, His blessings will surely follow" does not mean that if we do not seek the kingdom, no good will come our way by His great and merciful hand.
jt: No it just means we will be walking in ignorance, breaking his law, and wearing the curse.
It is Paul who reveals that our righteousness is a consideration in the mind of God and in the place of faith. "faith reckoned as righteousness." Do you have any real idea what that means?
It means that if we believe Godâs Word and act on it the same way Abraham did that our faith will be reckoned as righteousness just as his Faith was.
Nonsense. God spoke of Abraham's seed as being as numerous as the stars in the sky ------- and Abraham look to the stars, believed and that was counted as righteousness. There was no action before the pronouncement of the accounting. Go to Gen 15: 5,6 -- read the passage for a change.
jt: When Abraham was told to leave the country he was familiar with and go in the unknown - he acted. When Abraham was told to kill the child of promise, he gathered kindling and his son and headed toward Mt. Moriah. Faith without corresponding actions is DEAD.
Your righteousness is as menstrual rags before the Lord. That is the state of affairs in your life (and mine, if truth be told).
You may speak for yourself JD but if Terry is walking in all the light God Has given him then his faith is reckoned as righteousness just like Abraham.
Again, salvation is to Terry or Judy or whoever. The fact that you rebel against is that Abraham is blessed before he did anything but stair at the heavens.
jt: Possibly in JD's theology but the Father of Faith in scripture.
So God has no choice but to look elsewhere as He considers our plight. And He finds the answer in Christ who reconciled all in His flesh and at His death FOR THE PURPOSE OF holiness, blamelessness and being above reproach IN HIS SIGHT (Col 1:22,23).
Why do people imply that God has something wrong with his eyesight
or that he must play mind games because the reality is just too awful. Yes Christ made a way for us where there seemed to be no way; but remember 1 John 3:7 and 1 John 3:10. Donât try to make it into something else.
Continue to ignore the teachings of Romans 3 and 4. Be a legalist. No one who shares your view has ever shown the loving caring attitude that would convince me that their way is the way of God.
jt: Flesh compassion is not love JD. Love rejoices with the truth. If we loved ppl enough to be honest with them we would see God doing something in our midst. Jesus told ppl to "Go and sin no more" Was he being unreasonable & unloving?
It was Paul who taught us in this passage that the fact of reconciliation was accomplished in Christ, in his flesh, at His death and this reconciliation was for all on earth and in the heavens above ------------------ all were reconciled during the Incarnation Event. All !!! Book, chapter and verse on that, Terry, my friend.
Along with many "intellectual repositioning" type theologians. Ichabod, Ichabod, Ichabod. The whole world lieth in the evil one JD.
Actually, I was quoting scripture verbatim, Judy. You can use Miller's little word all you want -- it has no more meaning in this discussion than impact on a Fox News audience who probably didn't even notice the sign.
jt: Which is no feather in your hat JD. All it means is that ppl are complacent and content in their sin. Who needs God? At one time the word struck terror in the heart. No more. Hardened hearted, stiff necked, rebellion prevails.
Noone comes to the Father who has not first been drawn by Him to Christ and the process is clear (see Eph 1:13)âChrist in whom ye also trusted after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession unto the praise of his gloryâ
You don't want to move on and and admit to the process of intellectual repositioning in the Lord (read " growth), that is up to you, but all that I have said is right there in the Book, in plain sight. JD
