Re: [TruthTalk] Eternal Judgment

[Bill Taylor]

Terry writes that Paul said, "God forbid!" No, Terry, he did not say, "God forbid!" This is a terrible translation of Paul's words, and one which completely robs us of his intent. What Paul said was me (pronounced: may) genoito, which if translated literally is something on the order of "may it not become" or "may it never be." Before explaining this further, let me say that there is not one thing in the Greek to denote the idea of deity in this phrase. It is just simply not there. What the translators realized concerning Paul's intent is that his words were combining to forge a most emphatic negation; hence they came up with what they considered to be the most emphatic way of saying "Don't do this!" -- in other words, "God forbid!" But the thing they missed, and the thing we will never get to in their translation, is that the root meaning of Paul's words do in fact convey a negation even stronger than "God forbid." Let me explain.   The word me in Greek means "not" or "no" or "never"; it serves as a negation of whatever it modifies. The word genoito is an optative verb (which is a verb that conveys a wish or desire) from the word ginomai, which means "to become" -- hence the literal translation "may it not become" (with the "may" conveying the wish aspect of the optative) or "may it never be." But here is what is so powerful about Paul's intent: the root of this word genoito or ginomai is ge, which means "dust" or "dirt" -- ges is the Greek word for earth, literally the place made of dust. The word ginomai, when we take into consideration its root meaning, means that which is "from the dust," which conveys the idea of transformation; in other words it "becomes" something other, something greater.   And so the question is, What is the negation of that which comes from dust and becomes something greater? Well, it is the turning of that which is already greater back into dust. When Paul says me genoito, he is saying, "Don't do this, because it will turn you into dust!" In other words, it will kill you! And when he rhetorically asks of those who have been given life in Christ, if they should continue on in sin, he answers this question with a most emphatic "No!" And why is that? Because it would destroy them -- turn them into dust.    Keep in mind that in the back of Paul's mind was the story of Adam, the man made from dust, who had been given life by the breath of God. His was to become! to grow and mature in relationship with his Creator. But what did Adam do? He sinned. And what did his sin produce? You've got it: death -- back to dust. Are you starting to get the picture?   Stick with now me for a minute. Our word "hell" has this same root in the Greek. The Greek word for hell is geenna; it is pronounced gehenna. Gehenna was a valley just south and west of the Temple mount, which at one time belonged to a Hebrew man named Hinnom.  Scholars and commentators want to tell us that gehenna literally means "the valley of Hinnom." I will dispute their assertion below. What we can agree on is that "gehenna" at the time of the penning of the NT was a city dump. All of Jerusalem's trash went to this place -- and there it was burned. It is said that the fire never went out at gehenna. It is also said that gehenna was where the corpses of Jerusalem's animals -- and its criminals -- were burned. (Friberg)    Think about it: If one is content to let the root of this word "gehenna" speak for itself, then gehenna is literally the ground or the dirt of Hinnom (it just happened to be a "valley"). Add to this the fiery picture of that place in the minds of NT Jews and one begins to get an image of the hellishness of hell. "Hell" is the place where that which is dead turns into dust; it is that place where what was once alive and in a state of becoming, stops being human. What is death? Death is turning to dust, the ultimate cessation of being. I am not going to argue here about the duration of this cessation, but I do want to tell you that there is nothing scarier to the human mind than death (Heb 2.15). Death is the ultimate negation of being; in its final state, it is nothingness. Do you realize that we cannot even imagine what nothing is like? So horrible is death that we cannot even begin to fathom it.    Do you want to know where the early church got its idea that Christ "descended into hell" (see, e.g., the Athanasian Creed and later versions of the Apostles Creed)? Look with me at Ephesians 4.8-10: "Therefore He says: 'When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.' (Now this, 'He ascended' -- what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)" This passage says that Christ descended into "the lower parts of the 'place made of dust.'" That's right; in the context of this passage, our early brothers and sisters considered ges (translated above as "earth") to be a very specific reference to hell, the place where death turns to dust.   "Hell," the place where death turns to dust: Am I out of line in saying this? I do not think so. Another of our Creeds -- in fact, the earliest of our Creeds -- interprets verse 9 as saying "He descended into death" (see the early versions of the Apostles Creed). Yes, the early church considered ges, with its root meaning of "dust," to be synonymous in the context of this passage with both hell and death. Indeed, in order to take captivity captive, it was understood that Christ had to descend into hell and destroy that which was turning humans to dust; that is death.   And so, Terry, when you come across those occasions when Paul wants to be really emphatic, don't read "God forbid!" -- that just doesn't cut it. Instead, if you want to get to Paul's intent, and if you want to do it in a way that holds true to the text, say something like, "Hell no!" As for the rest of us, well, we'll all know what you mean.   Bill   ----- Original Message ----- From: Terry Clifton To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 12:21 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Eternal Judgment [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 3/29/2005 8:42:41 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, I am comfortable thinking that YOU can keep your sin and still be considered righteous, Terry. JD Does anyone see a difference in my words above and Judy's quote of my words "comfortable in sin  period?"    You come to Christ as a sinner, in your sins and sinning.   That is what a carnal babe in Christ does.   And that is exactly why the N.T. writers spend the majority of their time in script, dealing with the sin issue in letters written to the already saved  !!!!!!   To the Spirit filled.  To those with the new nature. To the fully redeemed.  J Did Paul tell those early Christians that they could be comfortable in their sins?  I think not.   He said, "God forbid! " If you are comfortable thinking that I can keep my sin and be righteous, why would you not feel the same way about yourself?  I don't think Judy was off the mark at all.  You simply realise now that you made a stupid remark, and instead of issuing a retraction, you are finding fault with Judy finding fault with you.  I find that faukty. :-) Terry (one of the least on the list)