In a message dated 4/3/2005 8:32:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
John wrote:
>Jesus, per my posted definition, is not a legaist.
>He is pretty much a grace Man.
Why be so narrow minded? Are you sure that your perspective is the only
allowable one? Never said I did, did I David. You seem to be very myopic in your view of Jesus. I don't dispute that Jesus is a grace man, but there is much more to him than this. Of course there is.
Think about the times that Jesus went into the Temple to clean it out.
Wasn't he imposing his beliefs about the Temple upon others? Why did he
have to keep doing it again and again? They didn't listen to him. The last
time he did it was the week they crucified him. I am not aware that there were more times than once. Christ came to the Jews -- not to anyone else (earthly ministry). And where are you going with this line of reasoning? Are you thinking that Jesus was a legalist using my definition?
The Scriptures teach that Jesus will rule the earth with a rod of iron?
Does this sound like ruling by grace? Who said "ruling by grace?" Those are not my words. But you do not really care about that, do you? Your view of the kingdom just seems very lopsided to me if you think mercy and grace are its only elements. Why don't you restate my view of the kingdom? Do that for me, David.
Consider the following passages of Scripture:
Revelation 19:15-16
(15) And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite
the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the
winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
(16) And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF
KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. Are you saying that Christ will judge whole nations -- that His judgment is not a judgment of individuals. Could it be that the nations that these actions are acts of discipline and are out of love? Do you see the difference between the wrath of a loved one for those whom he loves and the wrath of a conquering opponent?
Revelation 2:27
(27) And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter
shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. Nothing here that says he is not a God of love and grace -- ditto the comment above.
We are instructed to take comfort in the thought that Christ will administer
the wrath of God and take vengeance on the wicked that live among us. Is
there room in your theology for passages like the following?
2 Thessalonians 1:5-10
(5) ... that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye
also suffer:
(6) Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to
them that trouble you;
(7) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be
revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
(8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that
obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
(9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of
the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
(10) When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in
all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that
day. Are you asking me if I deny scripture? Are you thinking that I should answer the question you pose with this scripture apart from the greater context of God's love for the entire world, His completed act of reconciliaiton for all of mankind, that "salvation" and "punishment" are not extensions of who we are IN CHRIST. Why not take time, Miller, to figure it out for yourself. I have.
Good try, however :-)
David Miller.
