Debbie Sawczak wrote:
Hi Dave, welcome back.
DAVEH: Thanx Debbie. Sin City is a tough place to spend a few days.
May I suggest that a lessor man (such as John, perhaps) may have
succumbed while I was able to withstand the brutal forces trying to
suck money out of my pocket....
;-)
You are right about Jesus being the
cornerstone in that passage. But in any case the cornerstone is part of
the foundation and doesn't lay itself. Elsewhere Christ is called the
foundation (1 Cor 3:11, the verse that was in my head) but not in the
same sense, since Paul is laying it.
DAVEH: I understand. And I certainly agree.....Jesus is certainly the
foundation of the gospel and the basis of our faith. Without him....we
are nothing....lost at best.
What I was trying to get
across, rather ineptly perhaps, was that the relationship of Christ to
the church is completely different from that of any other
"church-founder" to the church s/he founded. I was also talking partly
just about the connotation that the phrase "founding a church" has for
me. It sounds to me like starting a new religion or belief system
DAVEH: Do you suppose it appeared like such to Pharisees?
(whereas note that the prophets are
included in the foundation in Ephesians), on one's own initiative and
on the basis of a private revelation. That isn't what Jesus did. But
anyway, I didn't mean to sidetrack you--continue your conversation with
John!
Debbie
-----
Original Message -----
Sent:
Tuesday, April 05, 2005 12:41 AM
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] TruthTalk] Eternal Judgment
Debbie Sawczak wrote:
Here is how this "Protestant"
thinks: Jesus didn't "found a church" at all. That has jarred for me
since childhood as a thorough misunderstanding. It makes me think of a
voluntary association of people who subscribe to a new set of religious
ideas and practices thought up by (or revealed to) Jesus, and by which
they hope to find their way to God (only Jesus managed to get it right,
like solving a riddle, so it was the right church).
Jesus didn't lay a foundation,
he is and always was the foundation.
DAVEH: That seems somewhat contradictory to what Paul described in Eph
2:19-20, where the fellowcitizens with the saints and the household
of God (is that not referring to the greater congregation of the
Church as a whole?) were given a foundation of apostles and prophets
(Jesus being the cornerstone) to form the (hierarchal) framework of the
Church. Could that not be suggesting that a True Church could
not exist without apostles and prophets, nor without such would we come
to a unity of faith and perfecting of the saints as mentioned in Eph
4:11-14? As I see it, Debbie....I respectfully disagree. I do think
Jesus gave us a foundation of A&Ps, upon which he founded the True
Church, so to speak.
What he did was of a completely
different order than any "church founder", way more radical: unite God
and humanity in life, death, resurrection, and ascension. The result is
that our corrupt humanity is made new, his faith is produced in us, and
we are included with him in the fellowship of God.
Debbie
DAVEH: Is this a commonly accepted theory of
Protestantism? LDS folks believe such thinking is flawed, John.
IOW.....I believe Jesus founded the RIGHT CHURCH and a measured amount of legalism
is important and necessary within that True Church.
What our Mormon friends do not understand and what you will
not admit to, apparently, is that there was no time when the RIGHT
CHURCH EXISTED except in the Mind of God and via the blood of Christ.
The First Church was steeped in legalism.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
|
