Bold black is JD's response
triune considerations. And I see, almost daily, the value of the teaching. In II Cor 5:21, we are told that Christ became sin (assumed all sin) so that in Him, we might become righteous. Righteousness in II Cor is a gift of grace.
On Wed, 6 Apr 2005 23:56:52 EDT [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Et al:
I have been doing a little thinking about various aspects of my counseling ministry in view of the
"That we might be made the righteousness of God in Him" is how the verse goes JD. It's a process that does not happen by way of the incarnation JD. In fact this will never happen without our cooperation in the process of sanctification.. I disagree. In 5:21, we have an EVENT (the assumption of sin by Christ on the cross) that is credited with the creation of "righteousness in Him." We assume His righteousness in this II Cor passage. In Romans "faith" is exchanged for "righteousness." No "process" is implied. We "cooperate" because this has already happened, not to facilitate it's occurence in our lives.
Such a statement parallels with Romans 4 and the claim that His faith (or "faith" ----- let's not argue on this) is exchanged for our righteousness. The point being that we are made righteous by Another.
So whose faith did Abraham have that was counted to Him for righteousness? Now, here is good question. Without sounding like I am backing off on "grace through faith salvation," I will say that ALL theologies have their problematic concerns. All of them. Which should say something for having our "being" defined by our relationship with Christ (there is your "process") as opposed to knowledge ( I Cor 8:1-3).
But, to answer your question. There is little doubt, IMO, that in a reading of Gen 15:5,6, the "faith" spoken of there is that of Abraham. He was counted "righteous" at that moment (a problematic passage for your theology, as well, I might add, with gusto.) Some may have missed my rather subtle solution to this problem. Recently, I have talked about "our faith attached to His faith." ( I must add that I have seen this solution in the writings of others -- I only adopted the solution) And this is one of the passages of thought that gives me a defense for this solution. There are TWO passages the help to define Romans 4:3, 11. I use the 4:3 and 11 as a single thought -- Abraham's justification is ours and for the same reason, per 4:3 and 11. Genesis 15:5,6 is one of two defining passages. Abraham only looks to the stars and believes -- and BAM -- he is "righteous. His faith is in play. Abraham's own faith. But Romans 4:5 (this is the 2nd passages of which I speak) - an immediate contextual statement - says this: But to the one not working but believing on the one justifying the ungodly, (taht would be Chrsit) is accounted the faith of him (Christ) for righteousness. " That Paul sees "Christ" in this example is somewhat of a theological surprise because, apart from Paul, we might not see this connection at all. Paul sees Christ in this Abrahamic illustration (Gen 15:5,6). Proof? Read on. It (this "proof") is here in Romans 4:5
where it is "the faith of Him" and it is, again, in Gal 3:14-16 where "seed" is not "seeds as of many, but 'seed' as of one -- Christ." I suggest that apart from Paul, we would not see Jesus in the Gen. passage - but with Paul, the reference is without failure. I don't have the time to demonstrate, but this Gen passage is used in NT writings to speak of a people -- and not the Christ. What do we conclude? That a partnership of sorts is the resulting theology -- Christ and us. He performs and we show our appreciation. Kruger ( I believe) has said that the essence of "faith" is a reverent "surprise" or something like that. I believe that it is "awe" and "appreciation" as an emotion. His works bring to the surface the emotion of appreciation, at least for me. And so His faith does the work of justification so that my "faith" might have time to fulfill the process of holiness which is the very purpose of all that God has done --------------------- He did it all for us.
In Col 1:17ff, we find the fact of reconciliation presented and the purpose of this reconciliation put forth. We have been reconciled so that we might be holy, blameless and above reproach in His sight. How can young people benefit from this teaching -- the full presentation; the fact and the purpose? Think about it: if we do not approach the effort to holiness with the view in mind of securing our salvation; if we understand that our salvation is secured by other influences ---- then the purpose of holiness is for our own health, for our own good. If we are not saved via holiness, what, then is the benefit? Sanctification and spiritual maturity. Our youth need to see the blessing of holy pursuits and the scandal of selfish impatience.
It's much more than a 'scandal' JD. It's a matter of life and/or death although the way you put it - it is just all layed on us so who would ever guess "It's a narrow way that only a few are going to find" If we understand that "reconciliation" is for all but "salvation" is not always used in the grander sense, we will have no problem, here. Perhaps this is another one of those problematic issues. Not for me, but I can see that it would be for others. "Salvation" is both esoteric in presentation and universal in Divine Hope. Where you see "few" saved, I see whole nations standing in His light ( Rev 21:24.) -- I see myriad's of creatures (including human creatures) worshipping Him (Rev. 5:9-14). In Rev 7:9,10 I have this reading : After these things I looked and behold, a great multitude, which no one could count (what ??!!!!) from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in which robes and palm branches were in their hands and the cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation is to our God who sits on the throne and to the Lamb." Do you understand why I disagree with the notion that salvation is for only a few. Perhaps "the few" of which you speak (and it is definitely there in the biblical text) is a reference to the Poeple of Israel -- I don't know but I will say that heaven will be chucked full of people like you and me.
When Christian young peopledeliberately choose to indulge themselves with no concern for others (and that is exactly what they are doing), they make themselves no different in function from those who hate God and give Him no acclaim. THAT is the scandal, as I see it. It is the scandal in my life, for sure. I was quite the sexual activist in my younger days - me a Christian and forever (it seemed) a leader within our youth group and at Christian college.
No fear of God is the result of believing the lie that there is no consequence for sin. Yes in deed. A very important consideration.
One day, I asked myself this question: "how in the hell am I different from the atheists? I mean, I am doing these things ON PURPOSE, deliberately IGNORING my own conscience, just because I don't want to wait. I am insulting the very authority of God, my loving and patient spiritual Father - will He run out of patience with me? Will he conclude that I am none of His BECAUSE THAT IS THE WAY I AM LIVING MY LIFE? "
You wouldn't be in line to inherite the Kingdom - that's for sure. Fornicators don't make it and under the Old Covenant
presumptuous sinners were cut off.
Even a loving and patient father wonders these things when he sees his own destroying their lives and, after all is said and done, CANNOT STOP THEM. And so Christ stands over the city and weeps. He CANNOT COMMAND FAITH. Grace is free but not cheap and we all have to make that concept a truth in our lives.
So what's the concept JD and what do you tell the ppl you counsel to aid them in becoming free from their misery and addictions? There are no typical answers, Judy. judyt
