On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 06:23:14 EDT [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: JD in orange
On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 13:54:07 EDT [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
jt: On the TT List you appear (to me at least) to be completely taken with what you call the "larger context" and the "Christ event".
JD: Indeed I am quite taken by these two considerations. The "larger context" is perhaps equivalent to your "in balance and in context" phrasing. To me, the "larger context" is that context which relates to a specific verse or statement of doctrine. The "Christ event" -- to me -- is my way of including all that Christ is about --- His eternal Sonship, His incarnation and ministry, His death, resurrection, ascension and continued life IN the believers (i.e. "the Holy Spirit").
jt:It's not the same as balance and context because to accept the "larger context" one must ignore too many other things; there are some major problems here JD. You will not accept the reality that mankind since the fall has been walking in spiritual death; or even the fact that man is primarily a spirit being; the awfulness of sin; or that God ONLY gives the Holy Spirit to those who OBEY HIM (Jesus).
On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 13:54:07 EDT [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
jt: On the TT List you appear (to me at least) to be completely taken with what you call the "larger context" and the "Christ event".
JD: Indeed I am quite taken by these two considerations. The "larger context" is perhaps equivalent to your "in balance and in context" phrasing. To me, the "larger context" is that context which relates to a specific verse or statement of doctrine. The "Christ event" -- to me -- is my way of including all that Christ is about --- His eternal Sonship, His incarnation and ministry, His death, resurrection, ascension and continued life IN the believers (i.e. "the Holy Spirit").
jt:It's not the same as balance and context because to accept the "larger context" one must ignore too many other things; there are some major problems here JD. You will not accept the reality that mankind since the fall has been walking in spiritual death; or even the fact that man is primarily a spirit being; the awfulness of sin; or that God ONLY gives the Holy Spirit to those who OBEY HIM (Jesus).
You haven't been reading my
emails !! I may not believe exactly as you interpret scripture, but
I do accept these teachings, Judy.
jt: Maybe things have changed then because I remember
going over A&E in the garden and your perspective was quite
different.
I am wondering how you preach this
"larger context"
and what the fruit of it would be in the lives of the
young ppl; does it cause them to "follow hard after God" or to be "complacent
and self satisfied?"
The fruit of my "preaching" is
what God is able to accomplish in the lives of those who
listen. I would say that the orchard looks pretty danged
good.
JD: with some effectiveness, I hope - are you so above the emotion of "empathy" that you have no idea how I might answer this part of the question? My own children (five of them) have as a central issue in their lives the Living Christ. I think that speaks rather well of the effectiveness of my preaching - when we speak as of the oracles of God, we will have the desired effect (eventually if not immediately).
jt: Since we don't agree on what the oracles of God consist of JD
JD: with some effectiveness, I hope - are you so above the emotion of "empathy" that you have no idea how I might answer this part of the question? My own children (five of them) have as a central issue in their lives the Living Christ. I think that speaks rather well of the effectiveness of my preaching - when we speak as of the oracles of God, we will have the desired effect (eventually if not immediately).
jt: Since we don't agree on what the oracles of God consist of JD
Judy, the N.T. scriptures speak
only once of the "oracles of God" and in that case, we are to speak AS OF the
oracles of God.
jt: Not so JD, you need to get
yourself an "authorized version" :-) God's oracles are spoken of in Acts 7:38,
Romans 3:2, Hebrews 5:12, 1 Peter 4:11; and there is no "as of" about it.
We are to say what God says about a situation. Now Lance would probably
tell you that this is impossible because of the "enlightenment" fuzzy minds etc.
but God says we can and what's more He has given us the Holy Spirit to help us
ie - who has known the mind of the Lord? We have the mind of
Christ....
I don't
have any idea what the scenario you describe above - (that is having the "living
Christ" as a central issue) would look like.
You are funning me, aren't you
!!!! ??? Of course you know of the Living Christ. I don't deny that
in your life. Central issue? Well, you certainly makes
"works" the central issue in your relationship with God. I
don't -- so there is a difference there for
sure.
jt: I'm speaking about what your idea of "having the living
Christ" consists of and please stop saying that I make "WORKS" THE
CENTRAL
ISSUE. You are in error. Obedience is what I make the central issue and
obedience is not dead works, it is first understanding and then doing the
Word of the Living God.
Does this mean being an OBEDIENT
doer of His Word or something else such as these ppl accepting that they are
included in the "incarnation" or "Christ event" and all is OK with them and the
world?
Actually, this is not half bad,
Judy. You are starting to get the order of circumsance down .
Now, can I ask "what do you think I believe about these
issues?"
jt: I think you believe the latter.
JD: I mean to be very careful here. I am not putting my children up against anyone's else'. Nor am I putting my religiosity along side anyone's. But I am saying that God has and is working through me to keep my children in a state of spiritual health.
jt: If they are now grown I would hope God is working through them to influence their own children. All we can do after the years of parental responsibility has passed is pray that they will make the right choices in life and be the right kind of example in our own lives. If we are in fact righteous then our prayers should avail much.
JD: You can stop being a parent to your children anytime.
Some on the forum are willing to send them to hell in a handbasket in a
hurry. Not me. I am forever their father
(also known a s"Dad !!!" and "Pops."). When my youngest had
her bout with "a brief psychotic disorder," I was the only one who
could talk with her -- I was the only one who believed that
she would recover -- I was the only one who understood that
she was actaully "passing gas," the gas of a legalistic and
prescibed upbringing by her Mom. And you know
what? I was right. Bragging? Me ?? Not at
all. Nope. What I am saying is that I am her
father. I understand her better than she understands
herself. And I believe in her -- even when things are
all wrong. That IS what I do and I have no plans on ending my tenor
of "father" before my death. I have two sons who would be lost
without me in their lives ------------------ not a brag;
a recognition of my assignment from God. He gave me these kids and
by God I will serve them as their Father until the
end.
jt: I don't remember saying
we should not love and encourage our children JD and I hope you didn't badmouth
her mother. However if she is
adult her choices are her own and she will reap what she sows in life
(scriptural principle)
JD: If one knew of the real John Smithson -- with all his faults and foibles, you would, then, understand that it is God who is giving the increase. I am confident in the Lord that He can and will work His will through my life and my "preaching" regardless of preceived "failues." So, I approach the office of Parent with great confidence. And I counsel the office of Parent with the enthusiasm that comes from knowing that I am (as are others) in partnership with the Lord -- that it is to Him that I stand or fall and He will make me to stand.
jt: I'm in no position to evaluate you personally, your children, or your "preaching" JD since I have no first hand experience with any of this. I am responsible however to examine and try what I have come in contact with in the form of email on TT.
JD: You claim all sorts of heresy of me --- putting me outside the circle on many occasions. Fine. The reason I do not buy in to that criticism is two fold: what I see in your attitude on this site and (more importantly) what God is doing and has done for me and my family over the years. I am a believer, as you are.
jt: Have I ever called you an unbeliever JD? You misjudge my attitude along with most of what I write.
JD: If one knew of the real John Smithson -- with all his faults and foibles, you would, then, understand that it is God who is giving the increase. I am confident in the Lord that He can and will work His will through my life and my "preaching" regardless of preceived "failues." So, I approach the office of Parent with great confidence. And I counsel the office of Parent with the enthusiasm that comes from knowing that I am (as are others) in partnership with the Lord -- that it is to Him that I stand or fall and He will make me to stand.
jt: I'm in no position to evaluate you personally, your children, or your "preaching" JD since I have no first hand experience with any of this. I am responsible however to examine and try what I have come in contact with in the form of email on TT.
JD: You claim all sorts of heresy of me --- putting me outside the circle on many occasions. Fine. The reason I do not buy in to that criticism is two fold: what I see in your attitude on this site and (more importantly) what God is doing and has done for me and my family over the years. I am a believer, as you are.
jt: Have I ever called you an unbeliever JD? You misjudge my attitude along with most of what I write.
JD: You have often put me
outside the circle of the saved. But we do not need to argue about
this. You are not my judge, and, I believe that you do not mean to
be judging me. So, all is well.
jt: I'm not judging you, never have.
In fact I've said this over and over and over and over. Where have you
been?
I don't consign ppl to either heaven
or hell. What I do judge is your doctrine which is mixture at best.
Someone else will judge your soul.
JD: Look, I have two daughters -- both worship-leaders and with Christ on the brain 24/7. I have one son, the youngest (Russ), who is the same. He is 27 and a full blown minister of Christ -- an avocation while he works as a partner of sorts with me in the cabinet business. And, then, I have two sons (James and Chad). When I am critical of harsh speech and the "ministry of rebuking," I am thinking of these two boys (boys I say -- one is 30 this month and the other is 37). The youngest is a doctor and the oldest a lawyer. If God had not blessed me with openness and half a brain (just to keep things equal ) -- these two guys would be so far out there as to be "lost." One cannot become a doctor or a lawyer without experiencing education at the hands of those who would teach them great harm. I am not their equal -- but they think I am. Fine with me. When I give them an answer to the option of "evolution" or of "situational ethics," it had better be right on.
jt: Good for you, it sounds as though God has been faithful in ministering to your children JD.
JD: And when I listen to the proponents of "rebuking ministries," I actually get angry, knowing just how many people will be driven away while the rebuker is yelling "and few there are who find it" - an emotionally stated excuse for their own failure as a minister of the Gospel of Grace.
jt: Who exactly are the "rebukers" JD?
JD: Anyone who spends more than 3 sentences out of a 100
"rebuking." I think that would be a great definition.
jt: Anyone who believes Matthew 7 and tells
others the road is narrow?
JD: Not at
all -- but this cannot be the only theme. The "few" that you
speak of, that the bible speaks of, are those who cannot be counted in Rev.
5. The glass is half full or is it half empty?
jt:
The truth of God's Word drove away the "rich
young ruler" who didn't want to part with his worldly goods - That didn't stop
Jesus from confronting him with it.
JD: There are no fences to sit on when it comes to this contrast. Not for me. Because I have seen the great harm it has caused.
jt: If the truth drives them away JD at least you will know that you don't have their blood on your hands... And some will stay; that is, the few who are willing to take the strait gate and the narrow road that leads to life and follow hard after God.
JD: There are no fences to sit on when it comes to this contrast. Not for me. Because I have seen the great harm it has caused.
jt: If the truth drives them away JD at least you will know that you don't have their blood on your hands... And some will stay; that is, the few who are willing to take the strait gate and the narrow road that leads to life and follow hard after God.
JD: Are babes in
Christ saved? Do they "follow hard" after Christ? What of the
babe, Judy?
jt: If there is spiritual life there will be
spiritual hunger and even the "babe" will be crying to be fed - same
thing.
JD: Patience, full acceptance regardless of conduct, well reasoned theology that is mindful of well reasoned objections, and consistency of faith and conviction in my life, all play an equal role in the salvation of these two brothers. Every parent is capable of this -- but some prefer to dictate and brainwash out of fear, plain old understandable fear -- that if they let go and let God (as they say) , hell is on the horizon for their children.
jt: I don't know about the "well reasoned theology" part JD. When they are grown it's time to let go completely and let God.
JD: I hope you not
continued to reproduce !!! Say "it is so."
jt: I hope so too, one like me is
enough. I want the same for them as I want for me which is to look like
Jesus
The promise of "inherited faithfulness" in the scripture is not one of consistency, but one of eventuality. What ??!!! We are promised that if we raise up a child in the way he should go, WHEN HE IS OLD he will not depart from it. We panic when the grandchild says, "Gramps, I don't believe in God, anymore" rather than simply responding by asking that child to "pass the gravy." We tend to worry, praying all night, for the child who has "decided" that the scriptures are nothing special or that "Buddhism has as much to offer than Christianity------rather than relying on the promise of God. We are actually left wondering about the future when our children come home late at night, drunk or pregnant, forgetting the promise.
jt: Are you speaking from "experience" JD?
JD: Certainly? I know this will come as a shock, but I have
committed sin. Yep. That's me. That God in Christ
that He died for me, a sinner. How 'bout you?
jt: I deal with sin daily JD, I work on taking thoughts
captive and resisting the ungodly ones.
JD: I believe in and will preach this doctrine of reconciliation because, without it, there is no value to this promise (stated above "WHEN HE IS OLD .....").
jt: The promise you are clinging to above for your children was given under the Law that you spurn JD... same as the one that says: "They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them" And "He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination"
JD: Law is law -- and a promise is a promise. There is
a difference, you know. That seems to have escaped you.
jt: I see - you just take the parts out that you like
and reject the rest of it.
JD: but law cannot justify
(Romans 2-4).
jt: It wasn't given to justify - it was given to show
us our need for Christ.
JD: The teaching that ALL HAS BEEN RECONCILED, ALL IN THE EARTH, ALL IN THE HEAVENS, ALL THAT IS VISIBLE AND ALL THAT IS INVISIBLE, is a teaching that comes complete with the doctrine of the partnership of God the Father in the life of each and every man, woman and child in this earth - AND MY BOYS.
jt: So even if/when they are out there in the pigpen you believe they are ATST reconciled to God? As for the creation - I read in Romans that all creation groans until the 'sons of God' are made manifest which has not taken place as of now..
JD: Sooo, you just ignore Col 1:15-23? I mean, it has not
meaning to you. A shame. Why you want to deny what Paul
has said, or ignore, is beyond me.
jt: Of course I believe Col
1:15-23, especially V.23 "IF YE CONTINUE IN THE FAITH, grounded and settled and
be not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye have heard and which was
preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a
minister" I don't deny Paul and neither to I follow ppl like Barth who
some believe are smarter than he.
JD: No matter how far out my boys might be at a given time in their often ridiculous lives, I KNOW that God is at work within them both to will and to do His good pleasure. And you think me a heretic for such a belief - I pity you for that.
jt: How can you be sure they have not grieved the Holy Spirit and trampled the blood of the covenant underfoot JD?
JD:
Because I am their Dad. I
know them. I know the issues of their heart. And how do
I know this ------------------ because I play a
major role in putting those issues into their lives.
Or have I misunderstood your belief. Perhaps we really are on the same page. As for me and my house, I have seen the workings of God and know of His power to ultimately defeat any evil in the lives of my own children. AND I HAVE GREAT CONFIDENCE IN THAT WORKING POWER OF GOD. So, while you condemn me to hell (or was it only a "premonition" on my part) , you just might be writing to one of the gate keepers !!! How's that for arrogance !!!! JD
jt: You are presumptuous to the max in what you write about me JD - so why would I think you would be any different with God?
Or have I misunderstood your belief. Perhaps we really are on the same page. As for me and my house, I have seen the workings of God and know of His power to ultimately defeat any evil in the lives of my own children. AND I HAVE GREAT CONFIDENCE IN THAT WORKING POWER OF GOD. So, while you condemn me to hell (or was it only a "premonition" on my part) , you just might be writing to one of the gate keepers !!! How's that for arrogance !!!! JD
jt: You are presumptuous to the max in what you write about me JD - so why would I think you would be any different with God?
JD: Well, because my presumptions concerning
you don't matter and my presumptions about God are called
"faith."
jt: Faith is pointless unless
it is rooted and grounded in truth. Faith in falsehood is the broad
road.
I have not condemned you or your
boys to anything, however I will say FWIW that you are far more assured than the
apostle Paul in his writings.
JD: How can this be
-- my teachings are Paul's ??
jt: They sure don't look the same to
me. Paul was not into the "incarnation" theory of saving the whole world
or he would have been teaching it in the book of Acts and
elsewhere.
God bless you , Judy Taylor. You
are a good old gal and God is bring you to a clearer understanding of the truth,
even as we speak................ ditto for the rest of
us. Jd
you may influence from your role in leadership because to me it does not sound much different from what I was
taught early on in the Methodist Church ie that the death of Christ was a historical event that was supposed to
benefit me in some way. No Holy Spirit conviction there at all, just religious dead works. jt Is the above what you heard in the Methodist church? If so, reestablish your membership in a hurry.
